View Poll Results: Do you believe Pelosi about Foodstamps and Unemployment?

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  • Pelosi is 100% correct

    8 22.22%
  • Pelosi is playing politics

    5 13.89%
  • Pelosi is 100% incorrect

    8 22.22%
  • Pelosi should go play in a mine field

    13 36.11%
  • Rutabaga

    2 5.56%
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Thread: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

  1. #141
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    If you can come up with a better theory as to why people can behave irrationally at times while normally behaving rationally by all means.

    Just remember that people do have emotions which can and do cloud ones judgement on many issues, not everything we do as human beings is based on cold rational thought
    Expectations of future demand were clouded because interest rates were under control by a central body and not set by the market.

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  2. #142
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    I would have to disagree here. Almost all human behavior is based on emotion and assumptions. Rationality is the exception not the rule that gets clouded.
    So you throw money down a wishing well expecting it to grant your wish? This is a regular occurrence for you?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  3. #143
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    I feel that the reason for all this unemployment is a lack of communications between the CEOs and the people.
    The trade imbalance was just left to fester for 20-40 years, allowing our money to take a one way trip to Mexico, China, Saudi-Arabia, etc.
    Unemployment insurance must be improved, as it is now, it fixes nothing.
    Business must communicate...as to what they need in labor..
    Maybe we can learn from Germany.
    And, this is not a "lefty/righty" thing either...
    But, in the short term, probably more money needs to be spent in job training....better Vo-tech programs and instructors.

  4. #144
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Wow, what a straw man. She was saying more unemployment INSURANCE makes the economy better off, not more UNEMPLOYMENT.

    To answer the question, yes, I agree with her...at least about unemployment insurance. Extending it should help the economy because it increases the purchasing power of those who would otherwise be unable to buy much of anything. This stimulates the economy.
    All it would do is raise prices since you're sapping away investment potential and diverting it toward demand. More demand and the same production gets you what exactly?

    (And we won't even mention the fact that it makes the unemployed themselves better off, since I know most folks don't care about that.)
    That's a mischaracterization if I ever heard it. Private charity can take care of people and they do it better. Again, where is the documentation of a huge mass of people starving in the 1800s?

    That doesn't mean that unemployment benefits need to be extended and expanded for all time, regardless of the state of the economy. I'm talking about a temporary extension, right now, in the midst of a period of extremely high unemployment. When unemployment comes back down, we can go back to the way things were...but with unemployment over 9%, it's difficult to seriously make the argument that more unemployment benefits will discourage people from working, when there are so many people who want to work but can't find a job.
    I can easily make that argument. When people get money for doing nothing, it makes their demands for compensation for doing something higher. Remove those benefits and people would be more willing to work.

    As for food stamps...I really don't know. I haven't studied the issue enough to know how expanding them would affect the economy, but I would guess that at least a temporary expansion would be a net positive for the economy as well, for basically the same reasons as unemployment insurance would.
    Because you're ignoring capital?

    Who shall ascend the hill of the Lord? And who shall stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to what is false, and does not swear deceitfully. Psalm 24
    "True law is right reason in agreement with nature . . . Whoever is disobedient is fleeing from himself and denying his human nature [and] will suffer the worst penalties . . ." - Cicero

  5. #145
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    But why. Why don't people learn? Like I said, the irrational man explanation really is lacking. People generally are smart, so why do they get fooled? What causes people to get fooled?
    There can be lots of reasons people behave irrationally. Dan Ariely covers some of the obvious examples in his book "Predictably Irrational." Some of the reasons when people are unwilling or unable to think rationally:

    - Wishful thinking. People WANT to believe that "this time is different," and so they come up with justifications for why obvious bubbles are actually sustainable.

    - The ownership bias. People generally overvalue what they already have. For example, when presented with the opportunity to sell something they own, people think about everything they're going to have to give up, instead of how much the underlying asset is actually worth.

    - The comparison bias. If given a choice between A) a high-end, expensive product and B) a low-end, cheap product, people will buy whichever suits their needs better. But if they ALSO have the choice of buying C) an equally high-end, but slightly MORE expensive product, they are vastly more likely to choose A over B.

    - Loss aversion. Potential losses loom much larger in the minds of most people than potential gains do. (This isn't necessarily irrational on a personal level, but from the perspective of financial markets it is.)

    These are just a few of the cognitive biases in human psychology that distort the economy. I strongly disagree with the notion that "people generally are smart." They are smart in certain areas and stupid in others. People make many predictable, irrational mistakes which can distort the market.
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  6. #146
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    All it would do is raise prices since you're sapping away investment potential and diverting it toward demand. More demand and the same production gets you what exactly?
    It's not sapping capital; the Fed just spat $600 billion into the economy. More demand CAUSES more production, which in turn causes more people to be hired.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez
    I can easily make that argument. When people get money for doing nothing, it makes their demands for compensation for doing something higher. Remove those benefits and people would be more willing to work.
    But there is no epidemic of people being unwilling to work. There are vastly more unemployed people than there are jobs available, which is why unemployment is so high right now. So increasing people's desire to work doesn't actually do anything, if the jobs simply aren't there. Now if we had a SYSTEMIC unemployment rate approaching 9%, that would be a different matter. But it's only been in the last couple years since the recession that that's been a problem, which indicates to me that it's temporary.

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez
    Because you're ignoring capital?
    Many businesses are currently awash with capital but are not investing it.
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  7. #147
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It's not sapping capital; the Fed just spat $600 billion into the economy. More demand CAUSES more production,
    how? through magic?

  8. #148
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    You should have allowed more than one option. Yes she is 100% wrong, yes she is playing politics, yes she should go play in a mine field. She is referencing the multiplier effect which is what happens when new funds are introduced to the economy through growth and stimulus of investment. Where she is wrong is in her idea that unemployment handouts are somehow growth or stimulus of investment.
    Get informed: UNICEF foreign adoption policy is killing orphans and the US gives $132 million to UNICEF every year. Stop the madness.
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  9. #149
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    how? through magic?
    More demand = More people who want to buy your stuff = More people who want to give you money = More incentive to increase production before your competitors do = More production
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  10. #150
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    More demand = More people who want to buy your stuff = More people who want to give you money = More incentive to increase production before your competitors do = More production
    yeah yeah yeah, but how are you going to increase that production before your competitors do? we've already taken the money out of the production side to give it to the demand side. if more people want my toys, but i can only make 1,000 toys a month, and the capital to expand my production has already gone into Bonds to be given to the people now using that same money to buy my toys.....


    ....then all that happens is i increase the price of my products; my production capability is shackled.
    Last edited by cpwill; 12-04-10 at 05:22 PM.

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