View Poll Results: Do you believe Pelosi about Foodstamps and Unemployment?

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  • Pelosi is 100% correct

    8 22.22%
  • Pelosi is playing politics

    5 13.89%
  • Pelosi is 100% incorrect

    8 22.22%
  • Pelosi should go play in a mine field

    13 36.11%
  • Rutabaga

    2 5.56%
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Thread: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

  1. #121
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    People are idiots

    Why did so many people all of sudden believe that homes were going to appreciate in value at 15 % or more a year when realistically they should only increase over time at a rate similar to income growth and inflation. At the heart of economics is individual behaviour, and individuals are not always rational, nor are they always well informed. The majority of the time people are rational and so are markets, but sometimes a panic or mania over powers those who remain rational
    But people aren't idiots. People don't just go and buy a computer and expect to make a profit from selling it 2 years later. Frankly, I find this explanation sorely lacking. What caused people to get this belief?

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  2. #122
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    Then all 330 million of us should go on unemployment and foodstamps and within a few months, our economy would be booming again.

    Listening to this stuff is like someone telling a child if they jump up and down outside they'll make diamonds by packing down the dirt outside. It's truly hilarious, the amount of delusion people have an then try to convince others.
    It's like someone standing in a bucket trying to lift themselves by the handle.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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  3. #123
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    I have absolutely no problem with unemployment or food stamps. They're a necessary safety net.

    What I do have a problem with is the abuse of food stamps and unemployment.

    As fast as government sets up a program to help people, people find a way to abuse it. That's human nature. And government is notoriously poor at policing abuse. In fact, it almost seems as if government doesn't care if its safety nets are abused.

    If a neighborhood church hears of a family who's fallen on hard times, they get help directly to that family. It's a beautiful thing. The people on the receiving end are grateful and the people giving feel good about themselves and their generosity. In government entitlements, the people on the receiving end aren't grateful, and the taxpayers don't feel good about the way their tax dollars are spent because there's so much cheating going on.

    • I know of people in my own life who've abused unemployment comp -- using it as a paid vacation 'til it runs out.
    • I know of people who regularly visit food banks and, because it's come-one-come-all, they are neither needy nor deserving.
    • I know of an anesthesiologist who, thirty years ago in his 20's, had a heart attack during surgery. He's been on SSDisbility all this time. Owns sailboats, races, travels. Lives in a McMansion on the lake. Because he couldn't get malpractice insurance, and he got himself a good lawyer, he's been collecting all these years.
    • I know a woman who gave up her child to the foster care system so her mother could collect on the child through the foster care program from the state. She's not supposed to live in the same house with her child, but, of course, she does.
    • I know of another couple who gave up their parental rights so that his mother could adopt their daughter. His dad had passed away, and, when his mom adopted the little girl, she began collecting Social Security for the little girl -- for the next fifteen years.

    I live in a lovely middle-class neighborhood in suburban Chicago. So we're not talking about a circle of acquaintences from the inner city. If it's so prevalent that I know that many people abusing the system, just imagine where our tax dollars are going.

    I know this isn't the subject of this thread, but at least I'm not talking about zuccini.
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  4. #124
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    I would really like to see a creditable study that food stamps or unemployment checks drive up demand. We have the same amount of people, what changed is the form of payment. Govt paid (food stamps, unemployment check) or earned cash. IMO, you do cut back on things as your income drops or goes away. The "increase" demand is so slight.
    "I can explain it to you but, I can't understand it for you"

  5. #125
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by phattonez View Post
    But people aren't idiots. People don't just go and buy a computer and expect to make a profit from selling it 2 years later. Frankly, I find this explanation sorely lacking. What caused people to get this belief?
    People sometimes get caught up in the hype. The tech bubble was a bunch of hype on how some internet stocks were doubling or tripling in peoples investments in a very short period of time. People like that idea, they become obsessed with doing what their neighbor Joe did when he bought into Scamsareus.com and tripled his invesment in 5 months. In this obsession they stop performing rational analysis of the companies and state "it is different this time". The media often reinforces this obbession by bringing on cheerleaders saying it is different this time. This obbession fuels the growth in the stock market causing this believe that it is different this time to appear to be correct, causing even some rational people who know differently to join in as a means to gain quick profits. Then some stocks start to fail. The obbsession starts to fade, the companies start to go broke, and the whole system comes crashing down. Untill rationallity comes back into the market. In the ,time massive amounts of capital has been poorly allocated,

    It is a pattern that repeats itself over time in many different countries in many different markets. A small scale one would be Beanie Babies.
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  6. #126
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    You're completely missing the economic reasoning behind this. It's giving these people an income, in which they otherwise wouldn't have an income.
    I'm not missing that at all. I get that and agree that for a very short period of time, people need help. What you don't seem to get is Pelosi and those who argue that spending $1 in unemployment nets $2 to the economy. By that reasoning, everyone should be on unemployment to boost the economy and that's laughable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Your Star View Post
    They generally spend all of this income they receive, and it increases demand in the economy. If you already have an income, and you're spending money, you're contributing to demand in the economy, these unemployment, and food stamps are just giving more people means to contribute to the demand. If they didn't receive these, then demand would be lower. It's not that hard to understand.
    I don't care about the rationalization or supposed societal merits of the program. That's not what's being discussed. I'm looking directly at Government gives $1 and gets $2 in return by the simple act of giving $1. It's bunk. You spend $1 and $1 goes back into the economy. Period.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  7. #127
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I'm not missing that at all. I get that and agree that for a very short period of time, people need help. What you don't seem to get is Pelosi and those who argue that spending $1 in unemployment nets $2 to the economy. By that reasoning, everyone should be on unemployment to boost the economy and that's laughable.

    I don't care about the rationalization or supposed societal merits of the program. That's not what's being discussed. I'm looking directly at Government gives $1 and gets $2 in return by the simple act of giving $1. It's bunk. You spend $1 and $1 goes back into the economy. Period.
    You do not understand economic activity

    Lets say I give you $10, but you have to spend that $10 and not save it. You go and buy a widget for $10, so $10 has been spent. But now what happens to that $10, why it is used to pay wages, suppliers and so on down the line (some might save part of it). That $10 will have been spent multiple times over in the economy, the government taking a slice per transaction some people putting away a fraction as savings.

    The $10 dollars will have created a fair bit of economic activity, but it may not have created wealth.
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  8. #128
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    You do not understand economic activity

    Lets say I give you $10, but you have to spend that $10 and not save it. You go and buy a widget for $10, so $10 has been spent. But now what happens to that $10, why it is used to pay wages, suppliers and so on down the line (some might save part of it). That $10 will have been spent multiple times over in the economy, the government taking a slice per transaction some people putting away a fraction as savings.

    The $10 dollars will have created a fair bit of economic activity, but it may not have created wealth.
    That's fine I understand that. What I don't understand is the claims that say the $10 spent net's $20 dollars. Prove that the $10 spent creates $20 back into the economy.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


  9. #129
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
    I'm not missing that at all. I get that and agree that for a very short period of time, people need help. What you don't seem to get is Pelosi and those who argue that spending $1 in unemployment nets $2 to the economy. By that reasoning, everyone should be on unemployment to boost the economy and that's laughable.

    I don't care about the rationalization or supposed societal merits of the program. That's not what's being discussed. I'm looking directly at Government gives $1 and gets $2 in return by the simple act of giving $1. It's bunk. You spend $1 and $1 goes back into the economy. Period.
    If Tom owes Bob $10 who owes Sue $10 who owes Al $10 who owes Beth $10....

    Give Tom $10 and $40 in debt has been repaid.

    Ha! It's prolly another bank bailout.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  10. #130
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    Re: Your view: Food Stamps and Unemployment

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    And this is the disconnect

    It is not a solution of course. It is a way to minimize the pain, instead of making the pain a massive shock to the system causing the entire system to be bed ridden for a short period of time, it allows for the system to function, albit at a reduced rate for an extended period of time

    The choices being a massive collapse with untold suffering, that is relatively short lived

    Or a moderate collapse with managable suffering that lasts for an extended period of time

    In any case untill the debt is worked through, economic growth will be stunted
    and so the solution is to increase that debt? your way of "letting us down easily" is to make the problem worse.

    and i would seriously question whether it even minimizes the pain. as i've been trying to work through with Your Star; the models that claim it does inevitably depend upon the notion that the Government just magically created that wealth rather than getting it from somewhere.

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