View Poll Results: How would you vote on the compromise as described in the OP?

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Thread: Would you vote for the compromise?

  1. #81
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    fascism is hardly the correct term

    is it fascist for a private club to prevent non members who pay no dues from having a say in how the club is run

    how about corporations preventing non stock holders from voting on executive compensation or dividend rates

    if you don't pay taxes and have no risk in paying higher taxes why should you have equal say in tax rates with those who do pay taxes.

    lets leave it at that level in terms of contributions since you seem loathe to want to engage in the intellectual exercise of dealing with "contributions"
    Generally if I am not part of a private club I am not subject to the rules or regulations of that private club, so if I dont pay dues, or play on its course so I dont particularly care. But if I am forced to be under its rules and regulations, then I do care about how it is run
    Last edited by Lord Tammerlain; 11-26-10 at 12:12 AM.
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  2. #82
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    fascism is hardly the correct term

    is it fascist for a private club to prevent non members who pay no dues from having a say in how the club is run

    how about corporations preventing non stock holders from voting on executive compensation or dividend rates

    if you don't pay taxes and have no risk in paying higher taxes why should you have equal say in tax rates with those who do pay taxes.
    You are talking about the difference between joining or being part of a voluntary organization or being part of the society in which you live. I would think you would know the difference.

    lets leave it at that level in terms of contributions since you seem loathe to want to engage in the intellectual exercise of dealing with "contributions"
    You don't like being confronted on the fact that your definition of contributions is entirely inaccurate. I understand that puts a major kink in your arguments, but there is no reason to get attacking.
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    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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  3. #83
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    I don't have to compromise on this. Taxation is a reasonable interpretation here. You may believe there are other ways for people to contribute and those can and should be for the society to decide. However, taxation is a reasonable interpretation and I don't have to clarify each and every fucntion support of the government. The argument holds water until you come up with a reasonable counter argument againsts. Just saying I don't have enough ways to contribute is not a counter agrument. Address taxation as a support and why that isn't a reasonable qualification for voting. We can take these one supports one at a time.
    No... you don't get to define MY argumetnt. Taxation is NOT the only way to contribute to society. Your false dichotomy renders your position a logical fallacy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  4. #84
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Actually, Turtle, its more than just the law, its the Constitution.

    We'd have to amend the Constitution to implement any such thing, and it would be a major departure from current Constitutional law, where all you have to be is 18+ to vote.

    Now I have in the past, suggested that maybe universal franchise wasn't the best idea in the world. I still wonder about that sometimes. Sometimes I indulge in speculation about other methods, where everyone could EARN the right to vote, but it wasn't automatic.

    This method however, is simply no good. There are people who work their butts off, and contribute to society through their hard work, who pay no income tax. This would include a good many of our young soldiers, btw.

    Even if you acknowlege that it isn't just income tax, that we'd have to look at what someone paid in SS/Medicare/FICA, property tax, sales tax, and so on, (and then we'd probably just be looking at the bottom 10% of the economic scale, for net tax nonpayers), I'm still not convinced this is a good idea.

    There are other, better ways to go about doing this. I agree that the majority should not be able to raise taxes on the minority, while keeping their own negligible. There are other venues through which to pursue this aim.
    true but I have yet to see any of those who want to jack up taxes on the rich while whining that non tax payers should have equal say support a NST or a flat tax or a consumption tax which would prevent the evil you and I agree exists-that being the non net tax paying voting bloc voting up through those who pander to them, the top rates of "the wealthy"

    note none of the tax hikers will ever admit that the current system has no limit on how much the many can vote away from the few and none of them ever admit the end game collapse that is bound to happen with this current system



  5. #85
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No... you don't get to define MY argumetnt. Taxation is NOT the only way to contribute to society. Your false dichotomy renders your position a logical fallacy.
    fine-maybe we could limit those who do not contribute in terms of taxes from having say on tax issues since you want to speculate so can we



  6. #86
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Generally if I am not part of a private club I am not subject to the rules or regulations of that private club, so if I dont pay dues, or play on its course so I dont particularly care. But if I am forced to be under its rules and regulations, then I do care about how it is run
    but is you don't pay taxes you aren't under that set of rules



  7. #87
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    No... you don't get to define MY argumetnt. Taxation is NOT the only way to contribute to society. Your false dichotomy renders your position a logical fallacy.
    Pot and kettle here. You do not get to define my argument either. You have already stated that taxation is a reasonable contribution. So address why this limit on voting is not reasonable. Quite BSing

  8. #88
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    but is you don't pay taxes you aren't under that set of rules
    And that is the difference between a private club and being a citizen of the USA is it not

    You may not pay dues to the US government but you are subject to its rules and regulations.

    Yes that person can move to another country/club but so can the person who is paying dues/taxes
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  9. #89
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    The reason that your arguement about net tax paying citizens only being able to vote is flawed Turtle is because there are people out there that make minimum wage, work only part time hours and hence do not pay a net tax income. And yet those same people might be out helping to feed the homeless at shelters or being a Mentor at a school or something else like those. Why should they not get an equal say just because they don't give a net contribution in taxes?
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  10. #90
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    true but I have yet to see any of those who want to jack up taxes on the rich while whining that non tax payers should have equal say support a NST or a flat tax or a consumption tax which would prevent the evil you and I agree exists-that being the non net tax paying voting bloc voting up through those who pander to them, the top rates of "the wealthy"

    note none of the tax hikers will ever admit that the current system has no limit on how much the many can vote away from the few and none of them ever admit the end game collapse that is bound to happen with this current system

    How about this idea. It would need a Constitutional Amendment to lock it in tight, but so would anything else if we wanted it to be a hard-wired fix:

    Freeze current tax rates exactly as they are. Require future tax rate changes to affect all brackets equally.

    So if you want to raise tax on the rich 5%, you have to raise tax on everyone 5%. If you want to lower tax on the rich 5%, you lower everyone's taxes 5%.

    Now we'd have to word it very carefully or some bright and unscrupulous politico would find a way around the restrictions, but then that's true of anything that might be proposed. One of the worries I have about consumption tax is that they'll do that and THEN bring income tax BACK a few years later.... probably as a "temporary measure that will only affect the top 2% earners"... seems we'd heard that before yes?

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