View Poll Results: How would you vote on the compromise as described in the OP?

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Thread: Would you vote for the compromise?

  1. #361
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    We have no age limit on rights. It isn't the right to free speech after age 7. The second amendment doesn't have an age limit though we have placed restrictions on it. I might add that the amendment limiting the age of voting, the 26th, says It does not say the rights of adults. It says the rights of citizens of which children are a sizable population. You obviously need to go back and read your constitution.
    I do not know what planet you live on or what country on that planet you live on. I have no idea where you get your information from. And I clearly have no idea where your belief system comes from because you have failed to cite any source with any actual language.

    Citizens who are adults have the right to vote.
    Citizens who are not adults have never had the right to vote in this country so they never have had those "rights" restricted.

    You cite the 26 the Amendment. You do realize that the 26th Amendment LOWERED the voting age from 21 and did not RAISE the voting age from one of childhood don't you? The 26th Amendment expanded the franchise by lowering the accepted age of adulthood for this purpose. It works against you not for you.

    I must say that i have never come up against someone in an otherwise intelligent discussion who clung to an ideological fiction born from their own mind in the face of all common sense and fact as you are doing here. Scratch that .... I did on another site dedicated to the works of an author and come to think of it that poster had much the same name you did except for a couple of letters in the last three. This is eerie.
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  2. #362
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    You do realize that the 26th Amendment LOWERED the voting age from 21 and did not RAISE the voting age from one of childhood don't you? The 26th Amendment expanded the franchise by lowering the accepted age of adulthood for this purpose. It works against you not for you.
    all this is showing is that voting is not an "innate right". it is granted to us by the govt. the govt has many times changed who is entitled to this "right". when we first started out you had to be a white male, property owner to vote.

    why then can the laws not be changed once again to further restrict that "right"? the precedent has been set.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  3. #363
    Educator hallam's Avatar
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I do not know what planet you live on or what country on that planet you live on. I have no idea where you get your information from. And I clearly have no idea where your belief system comes from because you have failed to cite any source with any actual language.

    Citizens who are adults have the right to vote.
    Citizens who are not adults have never had the right to vote in this country so they never have had those "rights" restricted.

    You cite the 26 the Amendment. You do realize that the 26th Amendment LOWERED the voting age from 21 and did not RAISE the voting age from one of childhood don't you? The 26th Amendment expanded the franchise by lowering the accepted age of adulthood for this purpose. It works against you not for you.

    I must say that i have never come up against someone in an otherwise intelligent discussion who clung to an ideological fiction born from their own mind in the face of all common sense and fact as you are doing here. Scratch that .... I did on another site dedicated to the works of an author and come to think of it that poster had much the same name you did except for a couple of letters in the last three. This is eerie.

    Cop out. I clearly showed that there is no such things a "rights of adults." The language clearly only states rights of citizens of which children are considered citizens. You simply do not understand what you are trying to talk about.

  4. #364
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    Cop out. I clearly showed that there is no such things a "rights of adults." The language clearly only states rights of citizens of which children are considered citizens. You simply do not understand what you are trying to talk about.
    I will use only little words for you to make it easy.

    Can you show in the Constitution (sorry its a bit one) where children can vote in elections?

    This comes from Wikipedia - SUFFRAGE article

    Typically citizens become eligible to vote after reaching the age of legal adulthood.
    Notice that you have to become eligible to vote and that comes with adulthood. You do not have the right to do so before adulthood as you are not eligible. In all my years I never thought I would have to explain this to a thinking person. I think it demonstrates the absurd lengths the right will would go to justify disenfranchising tens of millions of Americans.
    Last edited by haymarket; 12-01-10 at 05:02 PM.
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  5. #365
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Does mockery negate that we are seeing this idea actually proposed?
    outside of discussion and similar forums to this one; where do you see this being proposed (mind you, it would be nice to find that there is a sizeable number of Americans who agree that we need to tweak the franchise to realign its' incentive structure)? sponsors in Congress? heck, even the quixotic FairTax get's put back up every year.

    Does mockery negate that this is a blatant scheme to disenfranchise tens of millions?
    rather it is a scheme to see to it that if they do not want to share the cost then they don't get to share the power. remember, i'm calling for this to be voluntary. no free riders, but no one is forced by their position to be a free rider.

    Does mockery negate the desire to classify some citizens as less worth of the right to vote than others?
    no because that claim or desire simply isn't present. no one here is making moral judgements about entire classes of citizens (i somewhat doubt, for example, that anyone on the Right would declare that the low-paid PFC in Afghanistan is somehow an inferior citizen due to the size of his paycheck). we are simply pointing out that the extension of power without extending responsibility creates a destructive incentive structure, and that it would be a good idea to fix it.

    Does mockery negate the desire to categorize some citizens as having to earn the rights that have been simply a matter of course for most of our history?
    actually this declares that all citizens should be willing to shoulder their portion of the burden of governance if they are to direct it. frankly, i often wonder if we wouldn't do better with a 'civilian / citizen' dichotomy similar to what Heinlein described in Starship Troopers; where the franchise is the prize of those who have proven that they are willing to place the good of the community ahead of that of themselves. that doesn't mean i think it's a political plausibility, nor does it mean that I would propose it in the current US climate.


    but i will tell you what mockery does do: it draws out your hysterics in this thread that you depend upon in order to mask your inability to match the logic of the proposal under discussion.




    or, at least, that's what my Jewish/CIA/Mason masters told me to say.

  6. #366
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I will use only little words for you to make it easy.

    Can you show in the Constitution (sorry its a bit one) where children can vote in elections?
    can you show me where all adults irrespective of tax status can?

  7. #367
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I will use only little words for you to make it easy.

    Can you show in the Constitution (sorry its a bit one) where children can vote in elections?
    Can you show in the Constitution where children are not citizens?
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  8. #368
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    if you wanna live in a Robert Heinlein sci-fi universe - this ain't it.
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    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  9. #369
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    Can you show in the Constitution where children are not citizens?
    Are you really this dense? I mean really? The Constitution clearly identifies the age of voting in this nation and it is 18 and that was a LOWERING OF THE AGE FROM 21.

    There was never ever anything in the Constitution which allowed children to vote.

    I really am having a difficult time accepting that I am typing this to a rational adult.
    __________________________________________________ _
    There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.... John Rogers

  10. #370
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    I will use only little words for you to make it easy.

    Can you show in the Constitution (sorry its a bit one) where children can vote in elections?
    Maybe you should use small words for yourself. I don't have to show that children have the right to vote. I have to show the children are citizens and that the Constitution restricts citizens voting rights. The 26th does this completely. Unless you don't believe the children are citizens which would be a silly position. You have no counter argument here since in order for one man-one vote to be valid there can be no restrictions on voting whatsoever. Under the one man-one vote, children have to be allowed to vote. Since there is age restrictions, one man-one vote doesn't exist without caveats no matter what SCOTUS writes about.

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