View Poll Results: How would you vote on the compromise as described in the OP?

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Thread: Would you vote for the compromise?

  1. #281
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I don't get angry here. this board is nothing more than entertainment to me. You cannot do the job I have if you get angry over something like this board.
    I would imagine you couldn't do your job if you easily angered. You present angry, at times.

    its not an extreme position-its consistent with the founders' desires but its mainly an alternative to my preferred solution-a tax code where the many cannot vote up-endlessly-the rates of others based on promises made to them by greedy politicians
    But what you are saying, basically, is that you present an alternative position, one that I'm certain you know is not only ridiculous, but not possible in this day and age, just to antagonize. What do you think this is accomplishing? I know that you believe that what people say on this board is meaningless to anyone but the person posting... and you know that I completely reject that. What I see as an indirect outcome of what you are doing is (1) making those who are either on the fence of unaware of the "flat-tax" option far less likely to consider it, and (2) causing people to outright reject what you say because of your presentation. Just an observation.

    and I would bet that a nation wide poll of those who actually pay federal income taxes would find a great deal more support for limiting voting to federal income tax payers than is exhibited on this board
    I doubt that most assuredly.
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  2. #282
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    those who have incentive to do so. as pointed out earlier; those with 'skin in the game'
    And as I said, those who have "skin in the game" can take many forms.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  3. #283
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    I haven't slogged through the entire slew of postings here, but I think the entire notion of tying voting to taxation is silly, especially inasmuch as income taxes are all that is being considered here. Not being considered are all the other taxes everybody pays as well as the fact that the wealthiest people are the ones who are best able to protect huge portions of their income from taxation in the first place.
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  4. #284
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnWOlin View Post
    Turtledude apparently hates the United States, hates why it was created, and wants to find reasons to not allow people to vote so that the system can be one sided.
    JohWOlin apparently doesn't know his history what Turtledude is suggesting is actually an expansion of the franchise beyond that which the Founders utilized.

  5. #285
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And as I said, those who have "skin in the game" can take many forms.
    no, you have suggested that many people contribute to society, which is not the same thing at all. others have suggested that those who don't have skin in the game at the national level might still pay imbedded local taxes; which is closer, but still no cigar.

    the vote should cost those who exercise it something, their decisions should have a direct impact upon themselves, and that impact should generally mirror the impact it has on the nation. in that manner we will get an electorate who has incentives to make informed and responsible decisions.

    think of it as bringing market pressure to bear on the government. most people spend several factors more time weighing their options and doing their homework when purchasing a car. why? because they will percieve a direct cost to themselves for this car, and the car's quality relative to cost will directly impact them. when people vote for government, however, the cost is often indirect (sometimes several times removed), their marginal effect is small, and often the quality relative to cost has no effect on them whatsoever; they thus lack incentive. let us make those who are deciding about government into purchasers of government, so that they will begin to bring that same effort that they put into choosing an automobile into choosing a representative.

    what does congress fear most? an informed electorate.

  6. #286
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    JohWOlin apparently doesn't know his history what Turtledude is suggesting is actually an expansion of the franchise beyond that which the Founders utilized.
    This is what exactly? Newspeak?

    Nice try but no cigar since Turtle has already publicly conceded that the scheme would disenfranchise Democrats taking away their right to vote. Now how you can twist that to an "expansion" is a mystery to me.
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  7. #287
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    no, it is accurate. the simple "net taxpayer" standard that Turtle wants is less restrictive than the property qualifications placed on the franchise by the Founding Fathers. so to accuse him of somehow betraying our founding ideals is... well, i'll go with 'inaccurate'.

    and of course this plan would reduce Democrat votes. i've been saying the same thing:

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill
    in that manner we will get an electorate who has incentives to make informed and responsible decisions.
    this is the thrust of Turtle and mine's claims here; that our current incentive structure encourages voters to make uninformed and irresponsible decisions, and that at least one major party and a significant portion of another take advantage of this.
    Last edited by cpwill; 11-29-10 at 11:25 AM.

  8. #288
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    It is a betrayal of the right of every adult American citizen to vote. That is the important thing.

    this whole "net taxpayer'' thing reminds me of the scene in FAST TIMES AT RIDGEMONT HIGH where Spicolli and a teacher exchange ideas about whether an idea is half assed or is fully assed. In this case it just might be both.

    Just what it is the exact definition of a "net taxpayer"?
    How is it measured?
    When is it measured?
    For what period of time are we measuring?
    Which taxes are we considering and why?
    Which taxes are we not considering and why not?
    Are all levels of government considered?
    Can you bounce back and forth between classifications of being a "net taxpayer" and not being one?
    How often can you bounce back and forth?
    Who will make this determination?
    Is there an appeals process?
    Is it regularly reviewed?
    Is it a violation of the equal protections clause of the 14th Amendment?
    Is it a violation of the 24th Amendment?
    How many people would be stripped of the right to vote at any given time?
    Could they still vote in purely local elections?
    How would you manage such a system?

    and on and on and on it goes.

    from cpwill

    this is the thrust of Turtle and mine's claims here; that our current incentive structure encourages voters to make uninformed and irresponsible decisions, and that at least one major party and a significant portion of another take advantage of this.
    Simply because a person has money and meets some criteria for being a net taxpayer does NOT make them either informed or responsible in terms of being able to cast the intelligent vote that you seem to feel they will then cast. Nobody here advocating such a scheme has established and connection between those things.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-29-10 at 11:57 AM.
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  9. #289
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    It is a betrayal of the right of every adult American citizen to vote. That is the important thing.
    felons?

    Simply because a person has money and meets some criteria for being a net taxpayer does NOT make them either informed or responsible in terms of being able to cast the intelligent vote that you seem to feel they will then cast.
    automatically no; but it creates incentives for them to become so. i'm a ''good structure' guy more than a 'perfect result' guy. and, if you will note, how much money someone had or earned was irrelevant under my plan.

  10. #290
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    those who have incentive to do so. as pointed out earlier; those with 'skin in the game'
    Except, every citizen has some "skin in the game". Every citizen is affected by federal laws. Every citizen has to pay some form of taxes, even if it is just state sales taxes. Every male citizen has the chance of being drafted. And everyone pays indirectly for some of the corporate taxes that corporations have to pay. (Unless you believe that most companies would not let the amount of taxes they have to pay affect at all the price of their goods.)

    Even if a person is only paying state taxes (and I am referring to all forms of state income), they can still be contributing indirectly to the federal government. The more money the state takes in, the less money the federal government has to spend to help that state out. Along with this, there are even state policies that can affect how much money our federal government has to pay to the state, including laws that are in contention with federal laws or laws that might affect who lives in that state.
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