View Poll Results: How would you vote on the compromise as described in the OP?

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Thread: Would you vote for the compromise?

  1. #251
    Educator hallam's Avatar
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Please provide the factual evidence to support that claim.

    And then take the factual evidence that I have provided from the census on income distribution and take the information that others have provided on income groups voting for political parties and tell all of us why this scheme to disenfranchise scores of millions of voters would not adversely impact African Americans and Hispanics more than whites and impact Democrats more than Republicans.

    This is where the rubber meets the road.

    You seem to love to present what you believe are facts and then offer nothing in support except your own opinion to support them.

    You do understand the idea of proportionality don't you?

    As for fascism and the efforts of the far right to take any mention of it off the table less it embarrass some of their own positions, this is worth reading

    *Fourteen Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
    So for medicare look on page 449, you can see the complete table but it seems whites use these services over 10x as much. this why the way comes directly from reporting by the government. So this is proof right here for one entitement. To think the rest follow a different pattern takes a leap of faith.

    http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statc...pplement09.pdf

  2. #252
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    with respect, that's not the premise at all; the center of the argument is (to simplify it) that with power, comes responsibility. if you are going to be making decisions about what the government shall do with the rest of us (and indeed, given our position, much of the world); then the consequences (for good or ill) should fall on you as well. if you want to have an expansive welfare state, fine, but you should be required to help pay for it if you are going to force others to do so as well. creating incentives for Americans to use the vote as a means to get free stuff from others using the coercive power of the state is bad for stability, bad for our economy, bad for democracy, and simple bad governance. so let us realign the incentive structure that surrounds the vote to give everyone who exercises it "skin in the game" as far as producing good governance at the cheapest price is concerned.
    But what the premise ignores is that everyone does have skin in the game. All people pay sales tax, for instance, and most people also pay property taxes. So the premise focuses on income tax but ignores other taxes, primarily consumption taxes, that the poor provide.

    Also, the premise ignores tax breaks, especially to businesses, and corporate welfare provided to government contracts, especially no-bid contracts.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  3. #253
    Educator hallam's Avatar
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    But what the premise ignores is that everyone does have skin in the game. All people pay sales tax, for instance, and most people also pay property taxes. So the premise focuses on income tax but ignores other taxes, primarily consumption taxes, that the poor provide.

    Also, the premise ignores tax breaks, especially to businesses, and corporate welfare provided to government contracts, especially no-bid contracts.
    Sale tax and property taxes are not federal taxes they are state and local taxes. We are talking about the federal government here.

  4. #254
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by samsmart View Post
    But what the premise ignores is that everyone does have skin in the game. All people pay sales tax, for instance, and most people also pay property taxes. So the premise focuses on income tax but ignores other taxes, primarily consumption taxes, that the poor provide.

    Also, the premise ignores tax breaks, especially to businesses, and corporate welfare provided to government contracts, especially no-bid contracts.
    is sales tax a major issue in elections? do politicians run on jacking up sales taxes in federal elections? How about property taxes?

    you confuse the political importance of federal tax rates and the appeal to voters on that issue with state issues of property and sales taxes.



  5. #255
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    You again fail to actually represent my position. I have never said that there are no other ways to support the government. I have said that this is a legitimate way to define support and that we can discuss this compromise with this definition. You have still failed to show why this compromise is wrong since the government currently arbitrarily sets voting limitations. Plus you can't claim fascism by correlation alone of one policy.

    /sarcasm....The German set voting limitations......oh no anyone who does limits voting become a Nazis.

    You have no counter argument that is why you appeal to this. You can only claim correlation and have failed at ever level to describe why this is wrong. No, you entire argument is based off emotion or else you would have come with more meat. You accept current voting limitations currently. You accept limitation on prisoners and age which are completely arbitrary. Therefore, I can only rationally conclude that you are way you say. If anyone who limits voting rights are fascist, then we are all fascist, including you, because the US government currently limits voting rights of its citizens.

    You have producing nothing but fallacies here. You have even talked bad about yourself. I would call you a Nazi too but Godwin's law is not an appropriate response to any conversation.
    Well, if I have misrepresented you position, that is YOUR fault. You have only discussed ONE way to support the government... and then used it to present an argument around how to distribute rights. So, if you didn't use a false premise to support your position, you used your own misrepresentation to support your position. Either way, your position has no logic behind it. It don't have to prove why your position is false since you have failed to prove why your position is logical. I have no intention of debating an illogical position. Deal with reality, hallam. If you argree that there are other ways to contribute to society than monetarily, demonstrate why those ways should be igmored. And remember... a proof is not equivilent to an opinion.

    So, once you present a position that is NOT based on a logical fallacy, perhaps we will have something to discuss.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  6. #256
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    It seems this is true when the claim fascism as well.
    Nah... when conservatives start proposing fascist policies, it means that they are out of intelligent arguments.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  7. #257
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    with respect, that's not the premise at all; the center of the argument is (to simplify it) that with power, comes responsibility. if you are going to be making decisions about what the government shall do with the rest of us (and indeed, given our position, much of the world); then the consequences (for good or ill) should fall on you as well. if you want to have an expansive welfare state, fine, but you should be required to help pay for it if you are going to force others to do so as well. creating incentives for Americans to use the vote as a means to get free stuff from others using the coercive power of the state is bad for stability, bad for our economy, bad for democracy, and simple bad governance. so let us realign the incentive structure that surrounds the vote to give everyone who exercises it "skin in the game" as far as producing good governance at the cheapest price is concerned.
    You are falling into the same pattern, cpwill. There are other ways to contribute to society other than monetarily.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

    ====||:-D

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  8. #258
    Educator hallam's Avatar
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    Well, if I have misrepresented you position, that is YOUR fault. You have only discussed ONE way to support the government... and then used it to present an argument around how to distribute rights. So, if you didn't use a false premise to support your position, you used your own misrepresentation to support your position. Either way, your position has no logic behind it. It don't have to prove why your position is false since you have failed to prove why your position is logical. I have no intention of debating an illogical position. Deal with reality, hallam. If you argree that there are other ways to contribute to society than monetarily, demonstrate why those ways should be igmored. And remember... a proof is not equivilent to an opinion.

    So, once you present a position that is NOT based on a logical fallacy, perhaps we will have something to discuss.
    I have been very clear there there may be other ways to support the government. That there are other ways to support the government does not limit us here when discussing this way to support the government. You think this conversation is limited, it isn't. You are wrong. We can dissect support and discuss them individually. Your confusion here is that we can't. The fact that you havent' even suggested other ways to support the government is telling. Your further confusion is that just because there are other ways to support the government makes this definition wrong. This is a logical fallacy. Just because there are other ways to support the government doesn't negate adding this definition.

    Now you are relying on shifting the burden fallacy so that you don't actually have to present a counter argument. You have completely failed on all counts. You have further failed to understand what fascism is or means. So I am glad you have stopped debating me because your arguments are illogical, fallacious silliness that have no merit and doesn't stand up to review. Instead of you actually debating me, which you haven't by the way, you have have just called this fascist erroneously and produced excuse after excuse as to why current arbitrary limits on voting are okay but this limit on voting is not. You have stated citizenship equals the right to vote. Well guess what, it doesn't. We limit rights on voting all the time. This is just one more that say if you are taxed you get representation, if you are not, you don't get representation at the same level. No citizen has their rights stripped from them anyway as all citizens still get to vote.

    The fact is you don't have a logical counter argument. You only have an emotional one.

  9. #259
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    You are falling into the same pattern, cpwill. There are other ways to contribute to society other than monetarily.
    I agree. and there are more ways to take from society than merely using government services. but the issue is tax policy (and tax policy permeates almost every domestic political decisions which normally revolve around funding this versus that)



  10. #260
    Sage

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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    So for medicare look on page 449, you can see the complete table but it seems whites use these services over 10x as much. this why the way comes directly from reporting by the government. So this is proof right here for one entitement. To think the rest follow a different pattern takes a leap of faith.

    http://www.ssa.gov/policy/docs/statc...pplement09.pdf
    Sorry but I could find no page 449. But the page number itself leads me to conclude that this is a massive report the size of a telephone book. And this is what you could find? Perhaps you could do the most simple and direct thing and sicne you know where your evidence is simply reproduce it in your next post?

    The leap of faith you mention would be the one you take in making the assumption that what applies to one applies to all. Which makes no difference in the end anyways as your ally Turtle has already concede the point.

    Turtle has already publicly admitted in his post #220 that his scheme would disenfranchise Democrats far more than it would Republicans. i said all along that this was NOT about taxes but was a Machiavellian plan to install the Republican party in power for the foreseeable future. And Turtle confirmed that.

    Case closed.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-28-10 at 08:31 PM.
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