View Poll Results: How would you vote on the compromise as described in the OP?

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Thread: Would you vote for the compromise?

  1. #131
    Educator hallam's Avatar
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No what this compromise does is take peoples right to vote away. If you want equality then get rid of the tax system as it stands now and create one without any loopholes/tax breaks and then put in a flat tax based either on your income or your consumption. Taking peoples right to vote away does nothing except enslave those people to your way of thinking. There is a HUGE potential for abuse with such a system. Which is why we got rid of it a long time ago.
    I am not taking their rights away. I am discussing enhancing the voice in the government to those who support that government. If they want to vote support the government, it is as easy as that. There is no abuse here. It is just a limitation on voting rights just like we currently do.

  2. #132
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    I am not taking their rights away. I am discussing enhancing the voice in the government to those who support that government. If they want to vote support the government, it is as easy as that. There is no abuse here. It is just a limitation on voting rights just like we currently do.
    you have just redefined what it means to be an American by repealing the basic rights of being a citizen. Congratulations.

    Its amazing how your last post was shredded and flushed and you can act like nothing at all has happened.
    Last edited by haymarket; 11-26-10 at 09:31 PM.
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  3. #133
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    I am not taking their rights away. I am discussing enhancing the voice in the government to those who support that government. If they want to vote support the government, it is as easy as that. There is no abuse here. It is just a limitation on voting rights just like we currently do.
    It doesn't matter what words you use or how you try to explain it. When you strip it down to its essence you are taking peoples right to vote away.

    And do you really think that it is that easy to become a net contributing tax payer? In order to do so you must attend some sort of college or university. In order to do so you must qualify for a loan or grant or be able to afford it yourself. And then you have to be intelligent enough to pass all of your classes in order to get your degree and then find a job in the area that you got your degree in. What about the people that are not able to get those loans/grants? Of course there is always the possiblity that if such a "compromise" was made that the rich would get rid of grants and loans period so that they didn't have to pay as much into the system. Which brings us to being able to afford college. Not everyone has the 40k to get through one year of college...much less 4-6 years required depending on what you are going after. In which case you condemn those people to not being able to vote.

    And then there are the effects that implementing such a "compromise" would cause. Who would work as a waiter/waitress in a restaurant with such a policy? If a restaurant doesn't have servers then it has no business. Unless it only seats up to 10 people, then the owner could do it I suppose. But wait...what about cooks? Not all cooks makes 15-20 bucks an hour. There are those that work for minimum wage also. Can the owner cook and serve people also? Probably not since the owner also has to do lots of other things that is required of any business. Dishwashers? Guess the owner would have to do that too huh?

    And there are many many many other fields of lower wage labor that would be negatively affected. Face it, if it wasn't for the lower wage earners which you seem to look down upon this country would not be running.
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  4. #134
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    you have just redefined what it means to be an American by repealing the basic rights of being a citizen. Congratulations.

    Its amazing how your last post was shredded and flushed and you can act like nothing at all has happened.
    are children not citizens?



  5. #135
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It doesn't matter what words you use or how you try to explain it. When you strip it down to its essence you are taking peoples right to vote away.

    And do you really think that it is that easy to become a net contributing tax payer? In order to do so you must attend some sort of college or university. In order to do so you must qualify for a loan or grant or be able to afford it yourself. And then you have to be intelligent enough to pass all of your classes in order to get your degree and then find a job in the area that you got your degree in. What about the people that are not able to get those loans/grants? Of course there is always the possiblity that if such a "compromise" was made that the rich would get rid of grants and loans period so that they didn't have to pay as much into the system. Which brings us to being able to afford college. Not everyone has the 40k to get through one year of college...much less 4-6 years required depending on what you are going after. In which case you condemn those people to not being able to vote.

    And then there are the effects that implementing such a "compromise" would cause. Who would work as a waiter/waitress in a restaurant with such a policy? If a restaurant doesn't have servers then it has no business. Unless it only seats up to 10 people, then the owner could do it I suppose. But wait...what about cooks? Not all cooks makes 15-20 bucks an hour. There are those that work for minimum wage also. Can the owner cook and serve people also? Probably not since the owner also has to do lots of other things that is required of any business. Dishwashers? Guess the owner would have to do that too huh?

    And there are many many many other fields of lower wage labor that would be negatively affected. Face it, if it wasn't for the lower wage earners which you seem to look down upon this country would not be running.
    do you see any danger when we reach a point where there is a majority of voters who are not federal income tax payers?



  6. #136
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Actually, that's not really true. People in lower tax brackets are more likely to give a higher percentage of their earnings to charity and more likely to not deduct those contributions from their taxes.



    A Nation of Givers — The American, A Magazine of Ideas

    ancedotal evidence doesn't really cut it but those people tend to be tax payers.



  7. #137
    Educator hallam's Avatar
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    It doesn't matter what words you use or how you try to explain it. When you strip it down to its essence you are taking peoples right to vote away.

    And do you really think that it is that easy to become a net contributing tax payer? In order to do so you must attend some sort of college or university. In order to do so you must qualify for a loan or grant or be able to afford it yourself. And then you have to be intelligent enough to pass all of your classes in order to get your degree and then find a job in the area that you got your degree in. What about the people that are not able to get those loans/grants? Of course there is always the possiblity that if such a "compromise" was made that the rich would get rid of grants and loans period so that they didn't have to pay as much into the system. Which brings us to being able to afford college. Not everyone has the 40k to get through one year of college...much less 4-6 years required depending on what you are going after. In which case you condemn those people to not being able to vote.

    And then there are the effects that implementing such a "compromise" would cause. Who would work as a waiter/waitress in a restaurant with such a policy? If a restaurant doesn't have servers then it has no business. Unless it only seats up to 10 people, then the owner could do it I suppose. But wait...what about cooks? Not all cooks makes 15-20 bucks an hour. There are those that work for minimum wage also. Can the owner cook and serve people also? Probably not since the owner also has to do lots of other things that is required of any business. Dishwashers? Guess the owner would have to do that too huh?

    And there are many many many other fields of lower wage labor that would be negatively affected. Face it, if it wasn't for the lower wage earners which you seem to look down upon this country would not be running.
    Am I supposed to be convinced by this silliness? Seriously, we can't do this because people will quit their jobs.....oh the chaos. This is so irrational and so unsupported that I frankly have no idea what you are talking about. Btw way that waitress will still work because this doesn't take away her rights. That waitress will still work because bills still exist. Further, it is complete shenanigans to think it takes a collage education to become a net taxpayer.

    this is nothing but pseudo-intellectual BS.... /sarcasm I look down on the poor when I have made statements that the poor can be net taxpayers too. When I have made statements that the rich will be more effected by this with the current tax structure.

    Seriously, you and haymarket really should check yourselves out of the 80 sterotypes.

  8. #138
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Against.


    I have no problem limiting the franchise along sensible measures; frankly I'd like to see us bring back poll tests. simple stuff like "name the three branches of government" and "who are you voting for".

    HOWEVER, it would require a Constitutional Amendment. the States were Constitutionally charged with determining voter qualifications; but the 14th Amendment removed that authority from them. well, it removed it from them as far as race was concerned, but it has since been held to have secretly mean all kinds of fascinating things that the Judges just discovered just this last minute.... i digress.

    this compromise is similarly structurally weak. a tweaking that I think would better inform its' goals would contain the following:


    1. get rid of tax witholding and have tax day and election day on the same day. currently they are about as far apart in the year as they can get. this is not a coincidence.

    2. allow those who qualify not to be net taxpayers two options: 1. they can either take the tax code with all of the holes, and options, and end up getting back more than they paid in (in which case they forgoe the franchise for that year) OR 2. they can simply pay the percent of their income that they owe, with no deductions, and then go vote. That way, even the poor are offered the option to exercise the franchise, so long as they prove willing to bear the costs of governance along with everyone else.

    3. make this day a federal holiday so that the people can go about their business. it's already a shame that election day isn't; and surely tilts the scales away from those whose employment makes getting to the polls on time more difficult.

    taxation and voting are therefore linked; both of them a of the patriotic duty of those citizens who choose to take part in running this great nation. those who wish to avoid the responsibility that comes with power, are free to do so.


    upside: everyone who votes will have just cut the government a check for a hefty percent of their income. methinks this will provide great incentive for the American voters to ensure that that money is spent wisely and is only what is needed.

  9. #139
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    do you see any danger when we reach a point where there is a majority of voters who are not federal income tax payers?
    With what you are argueing for in this thread that is irrelevant. If the tax system is screwed up then fix it. You can do that and still keep peoples rights.

    I noticed you didn't comment on anything else in my post.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

  10. #140
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    you have just redefined what it means to be an American by repealing the basic rights of being a citizen.
    the franchise is not a right. it is a power, exercised by some of the citizenry of the United States. throughout our history we have seen fit to limit those who can exercise its' power. felons, for example, are currently forbidden to wield it, as are children. immigrants, too, though held to be 'persons in the United States' and thus subject to our rights (for example, they must receive Miranda Warnings), are forbidden to use this power. half our citizenry do not exercise the vote, and it no more strips them of their citizenship than the other half are made citizens by the act of voting.

    the franchise =/= citizenship

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