View Poll Results: How would you vote on the compromise as described in the OP?

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Thread: Would you vote for the compromise?

  1. #111
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Thanks all, this was a lively discussion, a happy thanksgiving (or what is left of it) to all
    You too. Always interesting debating you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

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    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


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    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
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  2. #112
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    This is not a response. This relies on the assumption that citizens no matter what should get the vote. But you don't beleive this. You already limit citizens from voting such as those under 18 and those who have gone to prison. This is just one extra obligation on limits we already set. Also, I would say those who are not contributing to the overal government do not have a say in the rules and laws that affect them.
    That is very Un-American
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  3. #113
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    I don't limit people from voting. As far as those in prison... I have no problem with them voting. Under 18? I know something about brain development in humans. Prior to this approximate age, people tend to make decisions more often on impulse and emotionality rather than rationality and information. I'd like to see some studies done, not on this age group's possible voting habits, but of their understanding of the political process and their ability to respond to that understanding.
    The government currently limits voting therefore you limit voting as a citizen of this country. So you do, at least indirectly, limit people from voting. Further, I don't think brain development comes into this. Whether they are developed or not (and as a psychologist I agree that they are not), if as you say "citizenship = the right to vote" then they should get the rights no matter what. Your opinion, though factual, is moot. They can vote for whoever they want for whatever motivation they want. The reality is that the people limit voting rights of other citizens currently for fairly arbitrary reasons. Adults say that the reason kids would vote are immature and therefore they are not worthy to vote. Citizens currently, with the laws they have enacted, have stated that those who have wrong society and paid their debts can not vote.

    So within reality as it currently is, why is adding an extra obligation wrong here. All this compromise does is say those who are putting in get representation. those who don't put in get representation as well at a reduced capacity.



    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    So, a government, arbitrarily defining what a contributing citizen is and taking away their rights if they do not meet the criteria that the government has set. Hmmm... sounds pretty fascist to me. I can think of a few societies/governments that put things like this in place. Many of them flourished in the '30's and early '40's.
    It is not arbitrary. Net taxation is a direct number. Further it isn't taking away a right. It is establishing order to a system that those whose money are being used get priority in determining the elections of those officials who will direct those monies. You can call it fascism. I call it equality. Right now, those who are not taxed get representation at a higher level. They put nothing in and get something out. Equity would be stopping this. So that those who put in, get something out; or at least get to direct the money. Instead of, right now we get those who do not put in directing money of others to themselves (which was stated in the OP).
    Last edited by hallam; 11-26-10 at 01:10 AM.

  4. #114
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    speculation--I suspect (and neither one of us can prove it) those who are paying taxes are usually the ones engaged in civic charity.
    No it's not speculation. You've never lived in a small town huh? Anyways here's a gal that goes to school, works 2 days a week and volunteers for charity work.

    Nicole Reed

    Reed, 25, is a student at Trousdale School and is involved in the school’s student work program.

    *snip*

    Two days a week, two hours each day, you can find Reed hard at work at Beef O’Brady’s Restaurant, located at 3838 Candies Creek Lane N.W.

    *snip*


    Reed also enjoys volunteering. She is adamantly involved in the Meals on Wheels program, a program which delivers meals to elderly residents, and often visits students at Prospect Elementary to read.
    I could find more if you want.
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  5. #115
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kali View Post
    That is very Un-American
    You are free to hold that opinion. I disagree. I think "taxation with representation" or the more familiar "no taxation without representation" is a very American statement.

  6. #116
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    You are free to hold that opinion. I disagree. I think "taxation with representation" or the more familiar "no taxation without representation" is a very American statement.
    It's not just an opinion. It is what this country is about. Equality for all under the law. Not "Equality for all that pay more in taxes than they get back in their tax returns".
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  7. #117
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post

    This method however, is simply no good. There are people who work their butts off, and contribute to society through their hard work, who pay no income tax. This would include a good many of our young soldiers, btw.
    Indeed. If such a thing were implemented, then it would give the right to vote to movie stars, who produce movies that can be digitally copied with no effort and so aren't a real commodity anymore, and lawyers and lawmakers, who don't produce anything either but provide a service but can ensure their service will always be required by passing byzantine useless laws they get paid to navigate for others.

    However, farm workers who labor to produce food cheap enough for our country to feed on and tradesmen who maintain our infrastructure would be disenfranchised.

    It's important to remember that in these days of the Kardashians you don't have to produce a good or provide a service in order to become wealthy. Therefore, wealth is no real indicator of importance in our country.

    If all the reality tv stars never worked again, I would never be able to tell the difference. If all the garbage collectors never worked again, however, I think we'd all know about it quite quickly.
    Also, we need to legalize recreational drugs and prostitution.

  8. #118
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by hallam View Post
    The government currently limits voting therefore you limit voting as a citizen of this country. So you do, at least indirectly, limit people from voting. Further, I don't think brain development comes into this. Whether they are developed or not (and as a psychologist I agree that they are not), if as you say "citizenship = the right to vote" then they should get the rights no matter what. Your opinion, though factual, is moot. They can vote for whoever they want for whatever motivation they want. The reality is that the people limit voting rights of other citizens currently for fairly arbitrary reasons. Adults say that the reason kids would vote are immature and therefore they are not worthy to vote. Citizens currently, with the laws they have enacted, have stated that those who have wrong society and paid their debts can not vote.
    The restrictions you mention are one. And one that is biologically appropriate. You would not give the right to vote to a 3 month old because they would not have the capacity to do so. It is the same general principle. I already said that we would need to do some studies to assess what age would be appropriate.

    So within reality as it currently is, why is adding an extra obligation wrong here. All this compromise does is say those who are putting in get representation. those who don't put in get representation as well at a reduced capacity.
    This is no compromise. It is disenfrachising members of society who are affected by decisions that they would then have no say in. You are talking about fascism. If that's what you support, that's fine, but at least call it what it is.





    It is not arbitrary.
    Of course it is.
    Net taxation is a direct number.
    Irrlevant. As I have explained to you, if we look at contributions to society, you are only looking at the dollar value. There is more to contributions that that.
    Further it isn't taking away a right.
    Of course it is. This is fascist speak for "we're just making a change."

    It is establishing order to a system that those whose money are being used get priority in determining the elections of those officials who will direct those monies. You can call it fascism. I call it equality.
    It is now the government's job to create equality? Wait... are you a fascist or a liberal. You are confusing me.

    Right now, those who are not taxed get representation at a higher level.
    Prove that.

    They put nothing in and get something out.
    Wrong. Their contributions may be non-monetary. See, you cannot argue this because you have STILL not refute my position that contributions are not defined by money. Until you do, your position is nothing more than moving the goalposts and an inaccurate definition.
    Equity would be stopping this. So that those who put in, get something out; or at least get to direct the money. Instead of, right now we get those who do not put in directing money of others to themselves (which was stated in the OP).
    And, as I said, one's contributions is measured in a variety of ways. So, you have proven nothing. Like I said, you do not get to define MY argument. I have refuted yours by explaining that contributions are not only monentarily based. Either you refute that, or there is little we have to discuss.
    Last edited by CaptainCourtesy; 11-26-10 at 07:03 AM.
    "Never fear. Him is here" - Captain Chaos (Dom DeLuise), Cannonball Run

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wiseone View Post
    This is what I hate about politics the most, it turns people in snobbish egotistical self righteous dicks who allow their political beliefs, partisan attitudes, and 'us vs. them' mentality, to force them to deny reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    You can't paint everone with the same brush.......It does not work tht way.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wessexman View Post
    See with you around Captain we don't even have to make arguments, as you already know everything .
    Quote Originally Posted by CriticalThought View Post
    Had you been born elsewhere or at a different time you may very well have chosen a different belief system.
    Quote Originally Posted by ernst barkmann View Post
    It a person has faith they dont need to convince another of it, and when a non believer is not interested in listening to the word of the lord, " you shake the dust from your sandels and move on"

  9. #119
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainCourtesy View Post
    And if you think that conservatives don't erroneously think that they know what is in someone's best interest, you are fooling yourself.
    Correct. We think you'll figure out what's in your own best interest.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  10. #120
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    Re: Would you vote for the compromise?

    For a moment please, let us look at what would happen if Turtle got his way and we accepted his theory and passed appropriate laws taking away the right to vote from these nonproductive tax slackers who are enemy of the rich.

    Who would be hit the most by such a restriction of the vote?

    Voting studies have demonstrated that lower income voters, ie the people that Turtle hates as non productive income tax slackers, vote far more heavily for the Democratic Party than they do the Republican Party. Census data tells us that African Americans - the most heavily reliable Democratic voting group - make up the lower half of income levels in this country in far greater proportion that Whites do. The same is true for Hispanics - another group that is voting Democratic in heavy numbers.

    So if the dream of Turtle comes to pass and we take away the vote because these folks are not paying enough for the privilege - the two groups who will be the hardest hit are African Americans and Hispanics. The practical result of this would be Democratic Party candidates losing tens of millions of votes and Republicans virtually given a lock on most elective offices.

    This is really NOT about taxes. That is just the ruse being used to push such a plan forward. This is blatant move to enshrine the chosen political party of Turtle in power forever.
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