View Poll Results: Does defense justify genocide?

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Thread: Does defense justify genocide?

  1. #1
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    Does defense justify genocide?

    There is another poll up right now asking if "defense" justifies torture, and the absurdity of even asking the question has led me to ask an equally ridiculous, alternate-universe poll question: Does "defense" justify genocide? How about burning people at the stake? Surely if Jack Bauer had to, let's say, dismember and cannibalize some children on live TV in order to save America from a terrorist plot, that would be justifiable?

    The fact that anyone even considers it acceptable to treat the matter of torture as morally ambiguous is reprehensible - it is not ambiguous. Questioning something does not make it questionable; debating it does not make it debatable; arguing over it does not make it controversial. There is no ambiguity here.

    Torture is illegal. It is a crime. It is evil. There are no real-world circumstances under which it is justified. Everyone who condones it is un-American at best. Everyone who in any way facilitates it or tolerates it when they are in a position to stop it deserves long prison sentences. Anyone who directly commits it (as George W. Bush has admitted to doing) deserves to spend the rest of their lives in a maximum-security prison, and if their crimes resulted in any deaths (as it appears occurred in Bush's case), that constitutes first-degree murder with capital special circumstances.

    This is not a game. This is not a TV show. This is America in the 21st century, and anyone who looks with nostalgia on the Spanish Inquisition can kindly leave my country.

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    Re: Does defense justify genocide?

    And so Bush is the only one who's ever crossed the line?
    As far as I'm aware everyone IN CONGRESS crossed the line when they knew what was going on and they permitted it to happen, anyway.

    In order for it to be considered unconstitutional - it first must be declared as 'torture' by the Supreme Court. You can't just decide that "this is torture . . . that is not" because *you* feel that way. In order to punish someone there must be a defined law which is broken or a regulation which is determined to be violated.

    Bush wasn't some Monarch gone crazy like Vlad the Impaler. He wasn't the only say-so in this decision. Many had the knowledge and power to speak out against him or to try to stop his decisions from going through - and some did try - but many did not and no one actually took necessary steps to stop him.

    So instead of pointing fingers and crying for his blood perhaps you should actually hold EVERYONE accountable who is at fault for the wrongdoing. He is but one figure in the entire picture.
    And he's not the only president to ever cross the line with the support of Congress.
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    Re: Does defense justify genocide?

    Actually, I would argue that theoretically, genocide would be justifiable in defense of oneself or one's country under certain circumstances. If you were fighting an enemy who refused to surrender, and would continue to be a threat as long as any of them were alive, then genocide would be the only option. This is unlikely to come up in real life though.
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    Re: Does defense justify genocide?

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Actually, I would argue that theoretically, genocide would be justifiable in defense of oneself or one's country under certain circumstances. If you were fighting an enemy who refused to surrender, and would continue to be a threat as long as any of them were alive, then genocide would be the only option. This is unlikely to come up in real life though.
    that threat would have to be significant though, and direct. Meaning your country was being invaded, your people being killed, and you had one last choice to prevent your own genocide, the launch of an all out assault to destroy the other

    If you invaded a country, currently dominate that country but the people are putting up resistance, genocide would be immoral and should result in the invading country being wiped out by the rest of the world
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    Re: Does defense justify genocide?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    that threat would have to be significant though, and direct. Meaning your country was being invaded, your people being killed, and you had one last choice to prevent your own genocide, the launch of an all out assault to destroy the other

    If you invaded a country, currently dominate that country but the people are putting up resistance, genocide would be immoral and should result in the invading country being wiped out by the rest of the world
    I agree with this. For genocide to be an option, it would have to be the only option available besides simply giving up and being wiped out/conquered yourself.
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    Re: Does defense justify genocide?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    There is another poll up right now asking if "defense" justifies torture, and the absurdity of even asking the question has led me to ask an equally ridiculous, alternate-universe poll question: Does "defense" justify genocide? How about burning people at the stake? Surely if Jack Bauer had to, let's say, dismember and cannibalize some children on live TV in order to save America from a terrorist plot, that would be justifiable?

    The fact that anyone even considers it acceptable to treat the matter of torture as morally ambiguous is reprehensible - it is not ambiguous. Questioning something does not make it questionable; debating it does not make it debatable; arguing over it does not make it controversial. There is no ambiguity here.

    Torture is illegal. It is a crime. It is evil. There are no real-world circumstances under which it is justified. Everyone who condones it is un-American at best. Everyone who in any way facilitates it or tolerates it when they are in a position to stop it deserves long prison sentences. Anyone who directly commits it (as George W. Bush has admitted to doing) deserves to spend the rest of their lives in a maximum-security prison, and if their crimes resulted in any deaths (as it appears occurred in Bush's case), that constitutes first-degree murder with capital special circumstances.

    This is not a game. This is not a TV show. This is America in the 21st century, and anyone who looks with nostalgia on the Spanish Inquisition can kindly leave my country.
    You sure are naive about the world, warfare and have no comprehension about what constitutes a crime or even first degree murder. I bet you probably think we should apologize to the Japanese for dropping atomic bombs on them and for putting the lives and safety of our troops ahead of the civilians in Japan.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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    Re: Does defense justify genocide?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aunt Spiker View Post
    And so Bush is the only one who's ever crossed the line?
    As far as I'm aware everyone IN CONGRESS crossed the line when they knew what was going on and they permitted it to happen, anyway.

    In order for it to be considered unconstitutional - it first must be declared as 'torture' by the Supreme Court. You can't just decide that "this is torture . . . that is not" because *you* feel that way. In order to punish someone there must be a defined law which is broken or a regulation which is determined to be violated.

    Bush wasn't some Monarch gone crazy like Vlad the Impaler. He wasn't the only say-so in this decision. Many had the knowledge and power to speak out against him or to try to stop his decisions from going through - and some did try - but many did not and no one actually took necessary steps to stop him.

    So instead of pointing fingers and crying for his blood perhaps you should actually hold EVERYONE accountable who is at fault for the wrongdoing. He is but one figure in the entire picture.
    And he's not the only president to ever cross the line with the support of Congress.
    Didn't know that George W. Hitler Bush Satan is a e-vile war mongering dictator who stole the elections from the kindly saint Al Jesus Gore and saint John Moses Kerry, ruled the US with a iron fist, the senators and congressmen were just puppets and the e-vile George W. Hitler Bush Satan just wanted the oil in Iraq and Afghanistan all to himself?(sarcasm)
    Last edited by jamesrage; 11-25-10 at 12:44 PM.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

  8. #8
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    Re: Does defense justify genocide?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Didn't know that George W. Hitler Bush Satan is a e-vile war mongering dictator who stole the elections from the kindly saint Al Jesus Gore and saint John Moses Kerry, ruled the US with a iron fist, the senators and congressmen were just puppets and the e-vile George W. Hitler Bush Satan just wanted the oil in Iraq and Afghanistan all to himself?(sarcasm)
    In many ways leaders have been charged and tried for war-crimes. There is a process and a method. If any of our leaders are considered to have committed a war crime then I would expect everyone to follow the set precedent - stick to procedure - and go about doing it the right way.

    Seeing as how those gears aren't in motion and that ball is not rolling *obviously* things aren't going that way.

    My issue lays with the fact that many people have issues with what happened - and tend to *only* blame Bush as if he's some lone ghost in the mist wreaking havoc on the world.
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    Re: Does defense justify genocide?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    The fact that anyone even considers it acceptable to treat the matter of torture as morally ambiguous is reprehensible - it is not ambiguous. Questioning something does not make it questionable; debating it does not make it debatable; arguing over it does not make it controversial. There is no ambiguity here.

    Torture is illegal. It is a crime. It is evil. There are no real-world circumstances under which it is justified.
    Oh, well if some random internet dude says so, it MUST be true! After all, the world obviously operates in black and white.



    Fun fact: At least 70% of people say that torture is justified in some circumstances:



    U.S. Seen as Less Important, China as More Powerful: Section 7: Threat of Terrorism and Civil Liberties - Pew Research Center for the People & the Press

    If this were expanded beyond "suspected terrorists," I think the numbers would be even greater.
    Last edited by RightinNYC; 11-25-10 at 05:57 PM.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Does defense justify genocide?

    Biased, poll is biased (not to mention rigged)

    But seriously...

    Only in highly unlikely circumstances.

    ----------
    Imagine a society of entities whose individual members possess high levels of strength, speed, etc., making them individually capable of killing/wounding multiple people if they so desire, without the aid of any weaponry.

    No known methods can keep them imprisoned.

    They ascribe to a belief system that does not allow surrender under any circumstances.

    They are aggressive to a fault, always choosing to attack, no matter the odds.

    They are asexual, and reproduce at a prodigious rate, such that a few (or one) individual(s) could become a threatening force inside a month or two.

    As a side note, human bodies are an optimum source of food for them.

    They are perfectly willing to use any form of weaponry they can make and/or acquire, up to and including any massively destructive weapons you can imagine.

    And other aspects along those lines.
    -----------
    The above is more likely in a fictional movie/book than in real life, and I can’t see humans (at least humans as they are currently) fitting the bill…

    But it’s still possible that such a situation would arise – and committing genocide would be the only survivable option.
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