Do You Understand Repression & After Effects of Slavery

Just because slavery ended a long time ago does not mean it has not left its mark even to this day. For people who talk about the black urban poor you need to remember two words "white flight" and how that tells you just about all you need to know. I mean, Harlem used to be one hoppin' place. However, as more colored folk moved in the white people started getting the hell out of Dodge and they took their money with them.

I do not think racism is really holding the black community down anymore, but rather it is the generational poverty brought on by centuries of abuse. Breaking out of poverty is very difficult for any individual and this is even more the case when someone lives in an impoverished area. The linkage between the situation in the black community to slavery is basic history.

Aunt Spiker said:

But the 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th Centuries?

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What about those centuries? The historical literature shows it really wasn't as bad as we've been led to believe. If anything, new Christian converts had it much, much worse than Jews. Whereas in most of Europe, Christian converts(of either Muslim or Jewish heritage) are executed in the inquisition. However, only 3 Latin states kick out both Jews and Muslims from their lands. This was done mostly by the Spanish and the Portuguese (the French were also involved but to a different extent and for different reasons). The papacy never endorses this expulsion and the majority of these Spanish Jews end up being called Sephardi Jews. Anyhow, Sephardis become welcomed in Muslim states; specially in Turkey where they are essentially begged to move into Istanbul.

For European countries which don't really expel their Jews, they end up moving them into 'ghettos'. In these 'ghettos', Jews not only have businesses but they essentially are running their micro-cities with institutions of higher learning, law courts etc. There were really no laws governing their finances or forbidding them from attaining credit and developing an economic culture. As opposed to America, where blacks were not only taxed without any kind of representation but they were systematically denied the creation of such culture.

Demon of Light said:

I do not think racism is really holding the black community down anymore, but rather it is the generational poverty brought on by centuries of abuse. Breaking out of poverty is very difficult for any individual and this is even more the case when someone lives in an impoverished area. The linkage between the situation in the black community to slavery is basic history.

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It has nothing to do with "centuries of abuse" and everything to do with the ghetto culture not only not valuing education and success, but actively fighting against such things. In order to be "black", you're supposed to be poor, uneducated, father a lot of children outside of wedlock, etc. Those who actually do get an education and try to get out of the ghetto are seen as sellouts.

Until these things change, how can we expect the lives of blacks to ever improve? They're doing it to themselves.

Cephus said:

It has nothing to do with "centuries of abuse" and everything to do with the ghetto culture not only not valuing education and success, but actively fighting against such things. In order to be "black", you're supposed to be poor, uneducated, father a lot of children outside of wedlock, etc. Those who actually do get an education and try to get out of the ghetto are seen as sellouts.

Until these things change, how can we expect the lives of blacks to ever improve? They're doing it to themselves.

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The ghettos were created through white flight as I just said.

Mickey Shane said:

Obviously there is some stigma attached to being of the race that was formerly in slavery. The African-Americans were treated like second class citizens from 1860 to 1964, and later in some areas, Things keep getting better as the old guard dies off, yet repression still exists here and there in America.

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Something is seriously wrong in America if one has to be "very liberal" to see this...
As I read these forums, its apparent that the conservatives deny this..

Demon of Light said:

The ghettos were created through white flight as I just said.

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You may want to google "The Great Migration." You referenced Harlem? There are many more dynamics (historically speaking) other than simply "white flight" at work here. :shrug:

FluffyNinja said:

You may want to google "The Great Migration."

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If you are trying to imply something about blacks leaving areas in droves as well then you are being pretty insensitive here. The fact is that black fled an oppressive situation in the South to go places where there was more tolerance. Of course, more tolerance in that case meant they would simply leave them destitute rather than making them sit at the back of the bus.

You referenced Harlem? There are many more dynamics (historically speaking) other than simply "white flight" at work here.

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True, but then white flight is a huge part of it. What other factors are you including?

Blackdog said:

Ummmm... When did Brazil become part of the "Western World?"

It is a third world country, what did you expect? France?

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Is that some sort of joke? Brazil is part of the Western World.

Western world - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Western world, also known as the West and the Occident (from Latin: occidens "sunset, west"; as contrasted with the Orient), is a term that can have multiple meanings depending on its context (e.g., the time period, the region or social situation).[1] Accordingly, the basic definition of what constitutes "the West" varies, expanding and contracting over time, in relation to various historical circumstances. The concept of the Western world has its roots in Greco-Roman civilization in Europe, the advent of Christianity, and the Great Schism in the 11th Century which divided the religion into Eastern and Western halves. In the modern era, Western culture has been heavily influenced by the traditions of The Renaissance and The Enlightenment, and shaped by expansive colonialism in the 18th-19th Century. Its political usage was temporarily informed by mutual antagonism with the Soviet bloc during the Cold War in the mid to late 20th Century. In the contemporary political and cultural context, the Western World generally refers to the nations of the Americas, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, Israel, and South Africa[citation needed].

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But if you want to talk about blacks in France.... What about them? The majority live in French Banlieu's as they are mostly Muslims(ghettos - surprise.)

BBC NEWS | Europe | Ghettos shackle French Muslims

"We were all poor, but there were French people, East Europeans, as well as blacks and Arabs," says Mr Dendoune, 33, an author and something of a celebrity in his estate.

Two decades on, the complexion of the place has changed.

"On my class photos more than half the kids were white," he says. "On today's pictures only one or two are."

L'Ile St-Denis is among the "suburbs" around French cities where immigrants, notably from former North African colonies, have been housed since the 1960s.

Blighted by bad schools and endemic unemployment, the suburbs are hard to escape.

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Seriously, what 'blacks' in what 'Western World' are you talking about? Every country that was involved in the slave trade and has a sizeable population of blacks, has a population of blacks which are overrepresented in the poverty department. That's a fact. It's not one you can run away from because we'll you really can't avoid a fact. Their poverty is due to other reasons, in France for example there are hiring practices which essentially make it impossible for those living in the banlieus(Arabs, Black Africans, Hispanics to a lesser extent) to get hired. Seriously, if you want to pretend you're the success story that everybody else can magically follow, that's great. However the fact remains that you and I are exceptions. The black man has been ****ed over for 400 years and that's not something which can be fixed by feel well speeches from pretentious whites or black conservatives who are ignorant of their own history.

Why don't you do us both a favor, pick up a book by W.E.B. du Bois called 'The Negro'. He essentially outlines the issue facing blacks back in the 1910s. It came way before the 1960s. Way before every social program you seem to hate. Read about what it was like to be a black person in any part of the world back in the 19th century. When you do that, you can tell us all whether or not you still feel the way you do about the effects of slavery.

Demon of Light said:

The ghettos were created through white flight as I just said.

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Yes, if only white people had been forced to continue living there, things would have been just peachy keen. Come to think of it, we should try to fix that by sending white people back into those neighborhoods now. You thinking about moving any time soon? I can find you a great apt in Brownsville or East Flatbush for cheap.

Oh, wait, that won't work. Whenever white people start moving back to those areas now, the people in that area start bitching about how gentrification is ruining the neighborhood and how the white people are driving up rent and forcing the poor minorities out. You're a racist if you do, and a racist if you don't.

Demon of Light said:

The ghettos were created through white flight as I just said.

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So if there are no white people, a place becomes a ghetto?

Hatuey said:

Why don't you do us both a favor, pick up a book by W.E.B. du Bois called 'The Negro'. He essentially outlines the issue facing blacks back in the 1910s. It came way before the 1960s. Way before every social program you seem to hate. Read about what it was like to be a black person in any part of the world back in the 19th century. When you do that, you can tell us all whether or not you still feel the way you do about the effects of slavery.

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Or, pick up a book by Booker T. Washington called 'Up From Slavery' and read about the other side of the story. :shrug: His autobiography which basically outlines a "rags-to-riches" story of how Washington overcame being a slave and rose to the position of serving a 34-year term as president of the influential, agriculturally based Tuskegee Institute in Alabama.

Blackdog said:

I understand that.

We have tried that and it failed. Most (not all) wanted for what ever reason to take the easy road. It was disheartening, and I gave up at that point.

When I was homeless, we were standing in a food line for hot dogs. A young good looking black guy was in front of me near the piled hot dogs. He started stuffing his pockets with them. I said "why are you doing that? Their is plenty for everyone. This is about honor and integrity." He looked me straight in the eye and said "I have none of those" and that was that.

Take what you will, but I am done.

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Our disagreement seems to stem from you not believing that blacks were affected enough by 400 years of discrimination and the academic world knowing it has. My disagreement with most people on this board stems from the blatant hypocrisy of white America in regards to black America. Even though blacks in America were slaves, discriminated against and harrassed by their government, we're one of the handful of groups which have fought for this country over and over again in every single conflict. We gave this country free labor for hundreds of years. We've paid taxes from the minute they were instated.

All the while, the same Protestant White America which demanded all these things from us thought that it was just fine from barring us from accumulating wealth, creating businesses and becoming prosperous. Why? Because it would not fit their vision of that great city on the hill. This fantasy black conservatives have that if you work hard, go to school and remain a good citizen that you could have built wealth is nothing but that, a fantasy. Blacks in America have been expected to be good citizens as the government and whites demand more from them and at the same time work without any hope of getting anywhere. After hundreds of years, the attitude of the oppressor becomes the burden of the oppressed.

I guess then that's my problem with the race relations in this country. It's the sheer hypocrisy of white conservative America in regards to what blacks (along with so many other groups) have gone through and what every other group they have oppressed has gone through. Whereas Jews were discriminated almost as much as blacks in the South, today you would not be able to tell because of how guilty white America feels about what the Germans did. Why don't they feel bad for the oppression of Natives? Why don't they feel bad about how the Chinese in San Francisco were treated? I guess Jews got Israel, Natives got casinos and the Chinese got Harvard. What did blacks get from the same America we, as a people, actually built? We got a thanks and a monthly welfare check. Well thanks. I guess it's a lot better than whatever it is conservatives are offering. Which is a spit in the face really.

FluffyNinja said:

Or, pick up a book by Booker T. Washington called 'Up From Slavery' and read about the other side of the story. :shrug: His autobiography which basically outlines a "rags-to-riches" story of how Washington overcame being a slave and rose to the position of serving a 34-year term as president of the influential, agriculturally based Tuskegee Institute in Alabama.

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Are you joking? Washington is the ****ing problem. His opinion boils down to 'appeasing whites' and maybe someday they'll end up liking us enough to do more than let us change their tires and deliver milk. No thanks.

Hatuey said:

Are you joking? Washington is the ****ing problem. His opinion boils down to 'appeasing whites' and maybe someday they'll end up liking us enough to do more than let us change their tires and deliver milk. No thanks.

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Washington believed that political agitation/upheaval was not the best approach to improving the plight of his people. He focused on hard work, self-reliance, determination and diplomacy to accomplish success. Perhaps you should do some research and see what influential Black leaders like Malcom X, Louis Farrakhan, Marcus Garvey, Elijah Muhammed, and MLK, Jr. have said about the importance of Washington's work?

Hatuey said:

I guess then that's my problem with the race relations in this country. It's the sheer hypocrisy of white conservative America in regards to what blacks (along with so many other groups) have gone through and what every other group they have oppressed has gone through. Whereas Jews were discriminated almost as much as blacks in the South, today you would not be able to tell because of how guilty white America feels about what the Germans did.

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So the reason why Jews and blacks are in their relative positions in society is because white Gentiles feel bad about what the Germans did but don't care about what happened to the blacks?

Why don't they feel bad about how the Chinese in San Francisco were treated?

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You're saying that the white Gentiles don't feel bad about how the Chinese in San Fran were treated, yet you go on to acknowledge that the Chinese have achieved great success in society. How did they manage to do that without the sympathy of the white Gentiles?

I guess Jews got Israel, Natives got casinos and the Chinese got Harvard. What did blacks get from the same America we, as a people, actually built? We got a thanks and a monthly welfare check.

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Can you explain exactly how the Chinese "got" Harvard while the blacks got nothing? Last I checked, the blacks received the largest boost when applying to schools while asians are actually penalized. Seems incongruous.

Blackdog said:

Excuses, excuses.

I wonder why brown skinned people in the rest of the Western world were able to recover and move on.

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That is funny because if you listen to the whinning that goes on about slavery, in the US, you would think it only happened in the US.

Why don't you hear the same from blacks (or any other group that was enslaved) in England or anywhere else for that matter?

Thanks. Fact of the matter is that, at this time in history, everyone was enslaving people. It was common practice not only in the west, but all over the globe. Africans enslaved other Africans and we don't even want to get started about what went on in the mideast 'round those days.

Slavery is bad. Some of the world has learned this (democracies), all of it has been guilty.

I don't have a problem singling out American (or, more accurately, US) slavery for discussion, but to pretend it was in any way unique is absurd - it existed everywhere then, mostly in the form of dictatorial regimes.


Before we de-cry US slavery, let us have some historical context.

ecofarm said:

Before we de-cry US slavery, let us have some historical context.

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:shock: But...but....but...that would let the wind out of the bag! :shock:

How dare you bring relevant facts to this thread! :soap













:devil:

RightinNYC said:

So the reason why Jews and blacks are in their relative positions in society is because white Gentiles feel bad about what the Germans did but don't care about what happened to the blacks?

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Yes. Essentially. Look at American attitudes towards Jews pre-WWII and then post WWII. It's a world of difference. Whereas in the 1910s and 20s you have politicians, business men and common everyday Americans blaming Jews for their problems, by the end of the 1940s it becomes simply taboo. The difference comes during WWII. As opposed to blacks who essentially had to beg the government for rights even though, you know, their oppression has been around for well over 300 years. White America is incredibly hypocritical about who it chooses to be sorry to and how it chooses to be sorry.

You're saying that the white Gentiles don't feel bad about how the Chinese in San Fran were treated, yet you go on to acknowledge that the Chinese have achieved great success in society. How did they manage to do that without the sympathy of the white Gentiles? Can you explain exactly how the Chinese "got" Harvard while the blacks got nothing? Last I checked, the blacks received the largest boost when applying to schools while asians are actually penalized. Seems incongruous.

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They were allowed to own businesses, earn credit, create and amass wealth as a result this meant they could then go to better schools, get more recognition etc. Have you been reading the thread? The point I was trying to make was that while every single group in American history was given centuries to create an economic culture, blacks have only had about 40 years to 'create' such a culture. All this bull**** about how AA should have made it better is fallacious. Even any talk of blacks being better off without AA is ridiculous. It's like beating a dog for a week, putting a bandaid on it and then telling it to get up and walk. Or in the other case, telling it to get up and walk. The dog is simply not going to get too far.

ecofarm said:

slavery for discussion, but to pretend it was in any way unique is absurd

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American slavery was unique in that the discrimination that came as a result continued after it had been abolished and even after blacks were supposedly granted citizenship.

Before we de-cry US slavery, let us have some historical context.

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What about it? Everybody else did it does not provide any kind of historical context for American slavery. Brazilian slavery and slavery in Africa were all completely different from one another. Their context might be slavery, but that doesn't mean much. They all had differences. In Brazil for example, to lose a slave was actually cheaper than to feed one. This is why quilombos were allowed to exist for so long. It was also the reason Brazilian colonials who owned slaves weren't really all that bothered when slavery was abolished. Though a lot of them lost fortunes, the remote nature of Brazilian engeiros made it so that there were no other jobs around other than plantation work. It was huge profits at the expense of a cheap working class regardless.

In America, slavery was the opposite. It was incredibly expensive to replace slaves so any talk of abolishing it was out of the question for some. Slavery was not the same everywhere nor did it have the same effects everywhere. I would say in Brazil slavery had worse repercussions than in North America as today black Brazilians make up the majority of the poor in Brazil. In Cuba however, slavery had the effect of moving blacks away from sugarcane production and into the cities.

Your 'everybody did it' excuse is simply ridiculous.

RightinNYC said:

Yes, if only white people had been forced to continue living there, things would have been just peachy keen. Come to think of it, we should try to fix that by sending white people back into those neighborhoods now. You thinking about moving any time soon? I can find you a great apt in Brownsville or East Flatbush for cheap.

Oh, wait, that won't work. Whenever white people start moving back to those areas now, the people in that area start bitching about how gentrification is ruining the neighborhood and how the white people are driving up rent and forcing the poor minorities out. You're a racist if you do, and a racist if you don't.

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What you are talking about is unringing the bell, which you cannot do. However, without question it was the reason for many of these areas becoming impoverished and dilapidated. If people had been a little less racist then perhaps black people would be better off.

RightinNYC said:

You're saying that the white Gentiles don't feel bad about how the Chinese in San Fran were treated, yet you go on to acknowledge that the Chinese have achieved great success in society. How did they manage to do that without the sympathy of the white Gentiles?



Can you explain exactly how the Chinese "got" Harvard while the blacks got nothing? Last I checked, the blacks received the largest boost when applying to schools while asians are actually penalized. Seems incongruous.

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Well, for one, people did not abandon a neighborhood every time a Chinaman moved in next door. Attitudes towards Chinese people were hardly gracious, but neither were they so intolerant as to prohibit Chinese people form succeeding.

Harshaw said:

So if there are no white people, a place becomes a ghetto?

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It is about who has the money. The black people did not have the money due in large part to slavery and so they needed people with money, the white people, to help earn a living. When the white people fled it left a lot of black people without enough income to have a decent life.

Hatuey said:

Yes. Essentially. Look at American attitudes towards Jews pre-WWII and then post WWII. It's a world of difference. Whereas in the 1910s and 20s you have politicians, business men and common everyday Americans blaming Jews for their problems, by the end of the 1940s it becomes simply taboo. The difference comes during WWII. As opposed to blacks who essentially had to beg the government for rights even though, you know, their oppression has been around for well over 300 years. White America is incredibly hypocritical about who it chooses to be sorry to and how it chooses to be sorry

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.

I just think it's patently absurd to argue that white gentile guilt or the lack thereof is the reason why blacks and jews are where they are today. I don't really know how to rebut that with specifics, so I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.

They were allowed to own businesses, earn credit, create and amass wealth as a result this meant they could then go to better schools, get more recognition etc. Have you been reading the thread? The point I was trying to make was that while every single group in American history was given centuries to create an economic culture, blacks have only had about 40 years to 'create' such a culture. All this bull**** about how AA should have made it better is fallacious. Even any talk of blacks being better off without AA is ridiculous. It's like beating a dog for a week, putting a bandaid on it and then telling it to get up and walk. Or in the other case, telling it to get up and walk. The dog is simply not going to get too far.

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So you're saying that while blacks were being denied the right to start businesses, Asians were allowed to prosper in this country? Yea, I forgot about all the blacks that were interned during WWII or all the laws against black ownership of businesses in the 20th century. Why, Asians were practically treated like Jews!

Demon of Light said:

What you are talking about is unringing the bell, which you cannot do. However, without question it was the reason for many of these areas becoming impoverished and dilapidated. If people had been a little less racist then perhaps black people would be better off.

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Where do you get the idea that the bell can't be unrung to some degree? Why not try? Come on, I'll find you a great 1BR in the South Bronx. Stop being such a racist.

Well, for one, people did not abandon a neighborhood every time a Chinaman moved in next door. Attitudes towards Chinese people were hardly gracious, but neither were they so intolerant as to prohibit Chinese people form succeeding.

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There are plenty of neighborhoods that are >90% Chinese, Korean, Russian, Spanish, Italian, Jewish, etc. The concept of an ethnic enclave is not exclusive to the blacks.

It is about who has the money. The black people did not have the money due in large part to slavery and so they needed people with money, the white people, to help earn a living. When the white people fled it left a lot of black people without enough income to have a decent life.

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So lets at least make an attempt to fix that. Shoot me an email and I'll set you up with my real estate broker.

RightinNYC said:

. I just think it's patently absurd to argue that white gentile guilt or the lack thereof is the reason why blacks and jews are where they are today. I don't really know how to rebut that with specifics, so I guess we'll just have to leave it at that.

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You can consider it as absurd as you want. The evidence does not lie. Pre-WWII, business men, politicians running for election and even those in power routinely accuse Jews of being in the same bunch as communists, pro-unionists etc. Post-WWII, those feelings disappear. The difference is made up by white guilt over the events of the Holocaust.

So you're saying that while blacks were being denied the right to start businesses, Asians were allowed to prosper in this country?

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This is a fact but only after they experienced the same period of discrimination that every other group that immigrated experienced. Once this period was over (usually within 1-2 generations), Asians were allowed to prosper. Blacks are the only group who were not allowed the benefit of creating an economic culture. For evidence look at the West Coast. The West Coast is a perfect example of the extent to which racist laws affected some immigrants and not others. Mexicans in California did not have an economic culture up until the 80s. After experiencing 1 generation of discrimination, they have now begun amassing wealth and creating 'Mexican owned-Mexican run' businesses, with the same backlash which other groups experienced. This would support the assertion that the reason black America has been unable to prosper is the fact that it has ingrained, within its social consciousness, the idea that it is not meant to create wealth for itself.

Yea, I forgot about all the blacks that were interned during WWII or all the laws against black ownership of businesses in the 20th century. Why, Asians were practically treated like Jews!

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I think you mean the Japanese, Asians as a whole were not denied business rights or wealth accumulation during the 1940s. A single period of extreme discrimination where the Japanese, were denied rights for a period lasting less than 10 years is not even remotely comparable to the systematic abuse of rights and denial of wealth that blacks in the U.S. experienced. If anything, it's a red herring.

Are we still going to have this issue 500 years from now? Will we keep hearing that the "white man is keeping us down"? "That everything is the white man's fault"? That we'd... never forgive, never move on? Do you think we might then?

...

Why not now?

Me, I don't care what happened over 200 years ago. I can't hold on to hate and vengeance. Being conservative, I save money, work hard, take responsibility, and deal wisely with my time and money.