Do You Understand Repression & After Effects of Slavery

Wake said:

Are we still going to have this issue 500 years from now?

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Who knows. At the rate in which 'Conservatives' take to actually understand the sociological effects of slavery, we'll probably be talking about this for 1000 years. I don't blame them. Acknowledging that America enslaved a people both socially and economically would mean we're not the shinning city on the hill that their Messiah Reagan spoke about. If anything we're more like a house with a lot of hidden secrets some people simply refuse to deal with.

Hatuey said:

You can consider it as absurd as you want. The evidence does not lie. Pre-WWII, business men, politicians running for election and even those in power routinely accuse Jews of being in the same bunch as communists, pro-unionists etc. Post-WWII, those feelings disappear. The difference is made up by white guilt over the events of the Holocaust.

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I'm not denying that white Gentile attitudes toward Jews changed, I'm denying that but for that attitude change, Jews would be in the same situation as blacks right now. I don't think there's even a tiny bit of evidence that would suggest that that would be the case.

This is a fact but only after they experienced the same period of discrimination that every other group that immigrated experienced. Once this period was over (usually within 1-2 generations), Asians were allowed to prosper. Blacks are the only group who were not allowed the benefit of creating an economic culture. For evidence look at the West Coast. The West Coast is a perfect example of the extent to which racist laws affected some immigrants and not others. 30 years ago, Mexicans in California did not have an economic culture up until the 80s. After experiencing 1 generation of discrimination, they have now begun amassing wealth and creating 'Mexican owned-Mexican run' businesses. This would support the assertion that the reason black America has been unable to prosper is the fact that it has ingrained, within its social consciousness, the idea that it is not meant to create wealth for itself.

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Can you explain exactly how these "racist laws" prevented blacks from doing things that asians or hispanics were able to do?

As you yourself claim, hispanics were unable to have an "economic culture" until the 1980's in Cali. Now, you claim they're successful. When were blacks permitted to develop an economic culture?

I think you mean the Japanese, Asians as a whole were not denied business rights or wealth accumulation. A single period of extreme discrimination where the Japanese, were denied rights for a period lasting less than 10 years is not even remotely comparable to the systematic abuse of rights and denial of wealth that blacks in the U.S. experienced.

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Yes, I was using shorthand to refer to the collective discrimination that they all faced. Regardless, are you really arguing that it's easier to recover in today's society from genocide or internment in the 1940's than it is to recover from slavery in the 1860's?

Hatuey said:

Who knows. At the rate in which 'Conservatives' take to actually understand the sociological effects of slavery, we'll probably be talking about this for 1000 years. I don't blame them. Acknowledging that America enslaved a people both socially and economically would mean we're not the shinning city on the hill that their Messiah Reagan spoke about. If anything we're more like a house with a lot of hidden secrets some people simply refuse to deal with.

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I'm pretty sure we recognized it when the republican Abe Lincoln did little things like, what say, fight to end slavery. Yeah, white people never fought to end slavery. Perhaps you also think 25 million slaves died because of slavery, too? I hear that numerous times from certain "non-racist" black men.

RightinNYC said:

I'm not denying that white Gentile attitudes toward Jews changed, I'm denying that but for that attitude change, Jews would be in the same situation as blacks right now. I don't think there's even a tiny bit of evidence that would suggest that that would be the case.

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Really? Well, I can show you pictures of the ghettos Jews were segregated to for part of the 19th century. I can also show you evidence pointing to a chance on policies towards Jews right after WWII. I can even show the change in how politicians spoke of Jews pre and then post WWII. I mean if that doesn't truly convince you then I don't know what to tell you. I never said they'd be in the same situation. I said there was a chance in attitudes towards Jews and that their relative positions are a result of how whites have perceived them. Maybe I misunderstood you point but I don't think I stated that or argued that.

Can you explain exactly how these "racist laws" prevented blacks from doing things that asians or hispanics were able to do?

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Well the West Coast really had little choice in terms of how it would approach minorities living in its coasts. The policies of denying wealth to minorities would essentially bankrupt the area if it kept them up for more than 1-2 generations. As opposed to the South and North where the biggest non-white group is blacks, California, always a progressive state, needed to implement laws which would accommodate the many immigrant groups that started accumulating within it.

As you yourself claim, hispanics were unable to have an "economic culture" until the 1980's in Cali. Now, you claim they're successful. When were blacks permitted to develop an economic culture?

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No. I claim they've started to amass wealth. Not that they're successful.

Yes, I was using shorthand to refer to the collective discrimination that they all faced. Regardless, are you really arguing that it's easier to recover in today's society from genocide or internment in the 1940's than it is to recover from slavery in the 1860's?

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Considering that these groups(Jews and the Japanese) were not continually harassed, discriminated against and pushed down by the government 100 years after internment camps and genocide? Yes. I would most certainly argue that it was infinitely easier for them to recover. No cyclical poverty was created, no denial of wealth was put in place.

Hatuey said:

Really? Well, I can show you pictures of the ghettos Jews were segregated to for part of the 19th century. I can also show you evidence pointing to a chance on policies towards Jews right after WWII. I can even show the change in how politicians spoke of Jews pre and then post WWII. I mean if that doesn't truly convince you then I don't know what to tell you. I never said they'd be in the same situation. I said there was a chance in attitudes towards Jews and that their relative positions are a result of how whites have perceived them. Maybe I misunderstood you point but I don't think I stated that or argued that.

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I'm not denying that Jews were treated differently before and after WWII. I'm denying that the reason why jews and blacks are in their relative positions in today's society is because white gentiles felt guilty about what happened to the jews but not guilty about what happened to the blacks. If that's not what you were arguing, I apologize.

Well the West Coast really had little choice in terms of how it would approach minorities living in its coasts. The policies of denying wealth to minorities would essentially bankrupt the area if it kept them up for more than 1-2 generations. As opposed to the South and North where the biggest non-white group is blacks, California, always a progressive state, needed to implement laws which would accommodate the many immigrant groups that started accumulating within it.

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Even assuming this is true, there are millions of blacks living in California. If CA was forced to enact policies that allowed minority groups to accumulate wealth, why would the policies benefit asians and hispanics but not blacks?

No. I claim they've started to amass wealth. Not that they're successful.

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When would you say that blacks were permitted to develop an economic culture? How would you describe their success so far, compared to hispanics or asians?

Considering that these groups(Jews and the Japanese) were not continually harassed, discriminated against and pushed down by the government 100 years after internment camps and genocide? Yes. I would most certainly argue that it was infinitely easier for them to recover. No cyclical poverty was created, no denial of wealth was put in place.

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They were interned and exterminated in the 1940's. That was 80 years after the last time that blacks were subjected to anything that could be considered even remotely comparable. As you yourself have noted, those groups were also subject to the same discrimination and mistreatment until recent years.

Mason66 said:

That is funny because if you listen to the whinning that goes on about slavery, in the US, you would think it only happened in the US.

Why don't you hear the same from blacks (or any other group that was enslaved) in England or anywhere else for that matter?

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The same issues to an extent exist within Europe as well where there was a strong history of slavery. The difference being in US, one can try to assimilate alot more successfully as it is not based on racial identity. From my experience, 'European' is sometimes synonymous with 'White' and one cannot fit in unless they are White. There are areas of Europe, you just should not go :shrug:

US is unique in that Whites systematically oppressed Blacks in such close quarters for hundreds of years. In UK, one wasn't allow to keep slaves on the land of Britain but ofc the loop hole was that you could sell them so we don't have the historical baggage.

Hatuey said:

Who knows. Acknowledging that America enslaved a people both socially and economically would mean we're not the shinning city on the hill that their Messiah Reagan spoke about. If anything we're more like a house with a lot of hidden secrets some people simply refuse to deal with.

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Refuse to deal with huh? We've ended slavery, Passed amendments to the constitution legally protecting the citizenship and voting rights of former slaves, passed the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. The SCOTUS has outlawed segregation. We've provided Affirmative Action legislation to insure equal hiring practices and scholarship opportunities, provided racial quotas to insure the same. We've funded Black colleges, music and art institutions, devoted a month to Black History, and have written African-American culture into EVERY aspect of our public school curriculae. African-Americans have held key positions in ALL branches of the Federal Government and the highest Command positions in the US military. The highest executive office in the nation is now held by an African-American. We have more Black CEO's and successful Black entrpreneurs than ever before. There are Black professors in predominately white colleges, Black principals of predominately white public schools, and Black chief surgeons of hospitals. Blacks have coached and are coaching NFL, NBA, and Major League Baseball teams.

So, please Hatuey, elaborate on exactly how we, as a nation are "REFUSING to deal with it"? :shrug:

This "Marcus Garvey-Black Empowerment" schtick that you've adopted is just a bit outdated :roll:

FluffyNinja said:

Refuse to deal with huh? We've ended slavery, Passed amendments to the constitution legally protecting the citizenship and voting rights of former slaves, passed the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act. The SCOTUS has outlawed segregation. We've provided Affirmative Action legislation to insure equal hiring practices and scholarship opportunities, provided racial quotas to insure the same. We've funded Black colleges, music and art institutions, devoted a month to Black History, and have written African-American culture into EVERY aspect of our public school curriculae. African-Americans have held key positions in ALL branches of the Federal Government and the highest Command positions in the US military. The highest executive office in the nation is now held by an African-American. We have more Black CEO's and successful Black entrpreneurs than ever before. There are Black professors in predominately white colleges, Black principals of predominately white public schools, and Black chief surgeons of hospitals. Blacks have coached and are coaching NFL, NBA, and Major League Baseball teams.

So, please Hatuey, elaborate on exactly how we, as a nation are "REFUSING to deal with it"? :shrug:

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Apparently, other black people and slavery apologists cannot understand.

RightinNYC said:

Where do you get the idea that the bell can't be unrung to some degree? Why not try? Come on, I'll find you a great 1BR in the South Bronx. Stop being such a racist.

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People moving back in is not going to magically create wealth or reverse the various problems that have resulted.

There are plenty of neighborhoods that are >90% Chinese, Korean, Russian, Spanish, Italian, Jewish, etc. The concept of an ethnic enclave is not exclusive to the blacks.

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Ethnic enclaves often form naturally for a variety of reasons. Those neighborhoods are dominated by a specific ethnic group due to something other than white flight.

So lets at least make an attempt to fix that. Shoot me an email and I'll set you up with my real estate broker.

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Were I actually living anywhere near New York City it would still mean nothing. You are not going to improve the situation of the black community by getting white people to move back.

Probably not.

I understand that slavery existed legally in the USA until the 1860s.

I understand that slavery still exists to some extent in the world...

I understand that until the 1960-1970's, black persons were repressed (with the aid of laws, sometimes) to varying degrees depending on what area they lived in...

Is that what the OP is talking about?

Demon of Light said:

People moving back in is not going to magically create wealth or reverse the various problems that have resulted.

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But it could help. If white people and their money leaving was the cause of all their problems, white people and their money returning should have some effect.

Why are you so opposed to living in Bushwick? Don't hate, bro.

Were I actually living anywhere near New York City it would still mean nothing. You are not going to improve the situation of the black community by getting white people to move back.

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Fine, you don't want to move to NY. I guess I can understand that. Why not move into whatever impoverished neighborhood is closest to you? Don't give me that "it won't help" bull****, as you know that's not true. Anyone that brings in new money and is a positive contributor to the community (as I'm sure you are) would be a help.

Ethnic enclaves often form naturally for a variety of reasons. Those neighborhoods are dominated by a specific ethnic group due to something other than white flight.

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Explain how all those other enclaves formed for natural reasons while black enclaves formed because of white flight.
Explain how the formation of those other enclaves allowed them to prosper, while the formation of black enclaves resulted in ghettos.

Hatuey said:

American slavery was unique in that the discrimination that came as a result continued after it had been abolished and even after blacks were supposedly granted citizenship.

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Are you saying that in the rest of the world (all of which had slavery in the past), prejudice has been eliminated? There is no racism in the world except in the US? The US is in no way unique in having pejudicial attitudes persist (in the wake of insitutionalized discrimination) today. The idea that the US is unique in discrimination resulting from past policy is completely detached from reality.

Your 'everybody did it' excuse is simply ridiculous.

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It's not "an excuse", it is a call for intellectual honesty. To condemn the US for slavery and ignore that it occured everywhere in the world at the time is weak sauce. It's like saying "The Jews are worse than Hitler because of what Joshua did!" - it ignores chronological context; it borders on intellectually criminal.



Let us discuss slavery and its impacts across decades and centuries after its abolishment; however, let's not tard-out and pretend that the US is unique among the world in this regard. It belittles the subject to pigeonhole it as a US problem either in its doing or undoing. You are allowing anti-Americanism to obstruct an important problem that plagues all of the world today, and that's not really cool.

RightinNYC said:

But it could help. If white people and their money leaving was the cause of all their problems, white people and their money returning should have some effect.

Why are you so opposed to living in Bushwick? Don't hate, bro.

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I doubt me going there would be of any help. After all, there are white people still living in these neighborhoods they are just in the same ****ty situation.

Explain how all those other enclaves formed for natural reasons while black enclaves formed because of white flight.

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Those areas formed because people moved near to people they know or who they will have the least trouble understanding. In other words, recent Russian immigrants who may not be great with English are more likely to move in where there are fellow Russians who speak the same language. With Jews there are other factors like the proximity to religious institutions, not to mention they tend to keep marriage within the community. However, with black people it was due to the people who were living there leaving due to racist attitudes towards blacks.

Explain how the formation of those other enclaves allowed them to prosper, while the formation of black enclaves resulted in ghettos.

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The formation of those enclaves is not what allowed them to prosper, but, like Hatuey said, the fewer obstacles to their economic success imposed by society.

Demon of Light said:

I doubt me going there would be of any help. After all, there are white people still living in these neighborhoods they are just in the same ****ty situation.

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Which is why they need educated and caring people like you.

Those areas formed because people moved near to people they know or who they will have the least trouble understanding. In other words, recent Russian immigrants who may not be great with English are more likely to move in where there are fellow Russians who speak the same language. With Jews there are other factors like the proximity to religious institutions, not to mention they tend to keep marriage within the community. However, with black people it was due to the people who were living there leaving due to racist attitudes towards blacks.

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Got any evidence to support the claim that it was benign for everyone else but racist for blacks?

The formation of those enclaves is not what allowed them to prosper, but, like Hatuey said, the fewer obstacles to their economic success imposed by society.

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Explain the obstacles to success that blacks faced that were faced by no one else.

RightinNYC said:

Explain the obstacles to success that blacks faced that were faced by no one else.

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The OP has it wrong. Slavery and repression in the 1800's probably do not contribute a large part to the troubles faced by blacks in the labor market. More largely women, and minorities are those who are faced with underrepresentation and lower wages in the labor markets most likely because of stereotypes that are present within our society. I suppose slavery could have contributed to this stereotype for blacks, but so could have many other things.

Kali said:

Do you understand repression and the effects that slavery brought that still exist in the U.S.A. today?

This is my first poll up here and sorry if belongs somewhere else and I did screw it up. lol.

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i understand repression within a limited degree.

as to the 'effects of slavery that exist today in the US'; no, i really don't see that many. i do see it as an excuse, bandied about. if you want a major socio-governmental fixture that is responsible for the 'plight' of African Americans today (really - are any significant portion of Americans in a 'plight'? how weak and spoiled we have become); that would be the Great Society.

RightinNYC said:

Explain the obstacles to success that blacks faced that were faced by no one else.

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i would particularly be interested in seeing if he has any clue as to the history of irish in this nation, or chinese.

Being black, I don't make excuses and blame racism for my shortcomings.

If you make groups that focus on race, like the Black Panthers, hate will continue. Those groups, primarily the Black Panthers and La Raza, must be stopped, as well as the KKK, even though that group is the only one restricted by our government. To me, the government has it wrong; it is being "overly equal," thus causing racism, hypocrisy, and hatred to continue on all sides.

Wake said:

Being black, I don't make excuses and blame racism for my shortcomings.

If you make groups that focus on race, like the Black Panthers, hate will continue. Those groups, primarily the Black Panthers and La Raza, must be stopped, as well as the KKK, even though that group is the only one restricted by our government. To me, the government has it wrong; it is being "overly equal," thus causing racism, hypocrisy, and hatred to continue on all sides.

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I don't think it's necessarily the groups but the individuals who can only see things in terms of race. There are far too many blacks who can't see beyond skin color. No matter what happens to them, it's got to be because they're black. There can't be any other explanation. They're the ones who perpetuate racist stereotypes because that's all that matters to them. Most whites don't give a damn what someone's skin color is. Sorry, but sometimes, you're not being discriminated against because you're black, you're being discriminated against because you're a douche.

This is like asking someone if they think their political opinions are well founded...

May I hazard a sharp truth? Perhaps those rich white folk won't move back into areas populated primarily by blacks... because of the violence, guns, drugs, racism, and general nastiness?

Can't see that, and you won't see the solution, like, ever.

Kal'Stang said:

The only effects that there are is what is in the mind of people with a chip on thier shoulder because they think that there should be. No one that experianced slavery before the end of the civil war is alive today.

As for the third option in your poll...get real.

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Actually there is a MASSIVE psychological effect that slavery still has. For an example: Imagine seeing your wife or daughter or mother or any other female in your family being subject to both physical and sexual abuse on a regular basis and not being able to do anything about it. That would seriously effect you. Or what about just in general, imagine seeing members of your family being mutilated and not being able to do a thing about it. And imagine it happens for about 300 years. Do you think that would have a massive psychological impact on you?

I dunno. I've never lived that long.

Blackdog said:

Hell I could have told you that being a black conservative.

We just uncle Tom's dancing fo da white man.

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While I do not agree conservatives when it comes to black conservatives, I do not see them as "uncle Tom's dancing fo da white man." I still respect them and all conservatives, it's just that we don't agree on a lot of things.