• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?


  • Total voters
    59
:roll: If people can't bother to research the requirements for flying (including what they can, and can't take on the plane), they deserve to be put through the ringer. This **** isn't rocket science, and these protocols exist for a reason.

No they don't. We take off our shoes because ONE GUY tried to blow up a plane with explosives in his shoes. We have nudie booths because ONE GUY tried to blow up a plane with explosives in his undies. Sorry, that's not a good enough reason for such a ridiculous waste of time and infringement on civil liberties.

Catz Part Deux said:
As far as the kids in Mickey Mouse ears and their parents...TERRORISTS LOOK LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. They have used women and children...blonds and brunettes. You cannot have an effective comprehensive policy to reduce attacks on flights without screening everyone, without preferences.

No they don't. They look like young men who behave nervously and who come from Muslim countries or have recently traveled to Muslim countries. When has a woman or child EVER been involved in airplane bombing? Why must little kids be felt up by TSA officials, just so that we can pretend that terrorists look like everyone else?
 
Do you have the right to sneak a bomb onto a plane? If you're against various precautionary measures, then you apparently feel you do.

Do you have the right to hack into Pentagon computers? If you're against the government intalling spyware on your computer and tracking your every mouse click and keystroke, then apparently you feel you do. :roll:

Whovian said:
Do I have a right to survive the flight from point A to point B without you blowing it up? I think so.

So, how do we reconcile those 'rights'? Yours to not be searched for explosives and mine not to be killed when your bomb goes off?

Except my desire to be secure in my person, but upon probable cause, is a rational desire. Whereas your completely absurd belief that you're likely to be the victim of a terrorist attack unless the federal government probes everyone's undies for explosives, is not.
 
No they don't. We take off our shoes because ONE GUY tried to blow up a plane with explosives in his shoes. We have nudie booths because ONE GUY tried to blow up a plane with explosives in his undies. Sorry, that's not a good enough reason for such a ridiculous waste of time and infringement on civil liberties.

It wasn't just one guy. It was these guys...

Islamic extremist guilty of liquid bomb plot to blow up transatlantic jets | Mail Online

It was the terror plot which changed the nature of airline travel for ever.

Three British-born Islamic fanatics planned to use liquid explosives disguised as soft drinks to blow at least seven flights out of the sky and cause carnage to rival 9/11 in the U.S.

A second phase of the plan included attacks on Canary Wharf skyscrapers, the Greenwich foot tunnel underneath the Thames, nuclear power stations, oil refineries and gas terminals.

The discovery of the plot in 2006 brought chaos to international airports as sweeping restrictions were imposed overnight on how much liquid can be taken on to a plane.

Plus several dozen of what were suspected to be dry-runs involving liquids on U.S. flights.

I'm not sure you're up enough on current events to comment on this, since you've clearly forgotten much of the last 5 years.

No they don't. They look like young men who behave nervously and who come from Muslim countries or have recently traveled to Muslim countries. When has a woman or child EVER been involved in airplane bombing? Why must little kids be felt up by TSA officials, just so that we can pretend that terrorists look like everyone else?

Apparently, you don't remember Jihad Jane.

JihadJane, an American woman, faces terrorism charges - washingtonpost.com
Colleen Renee LaRose, 46, has been quietly held in U.S. custody since October on suspicions that she provided material support to terrorists and traveled to Sweden to launch an attack, according to federal officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the case is continuing to unfold.

Or, the women who blew up a Moscow subway station...

Is there a glass ceiling in Islamist terrorist organizations? - By Brian Palmer - Slate Magazine

Or the female suicide bombers in Iraq. Israel, and elsewhere...Female Suicide Bomber Kills 40 In Iraq - CBS News
 
Last edited:
:roll: If people can't bother to research the requirements for flying (including what they can, and can't take on the plane), they deserve to be put through the ringer. This **** isn't rocket science, and these protocols exist for a reason.

As far as the kids in Mickey Mouse ears and their parents...TERRORISTS LOOK LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. They have used women and children...blonds and brunettes. You cannot have an effective comprehensive policy to reduce attacks on flights without screening everyone, without preferences.

The only change I would support at this point would be fingerprinting and creating an upper tier of screening for frequent fliers that would allow us to bypass the lines based upon providing the airline with detailed security information. That would free up more personnel to assist the noobs.

As far as not allowing your wife to fly because she might be exposed to unpleasantness at the security checkpoints? Good grief, that's one of the most ridiculous comments I've read in recent memory. I guess if your wife can't handle herself at a TSA checkpoint, she probably does need to stay at home. Preferably, with a full time minder.

Catz, I love you. But I can't agree with you on this subject. There are limitations to what government can and cannot do. The aggressive and invasive measure that the TSA now currently runs is over that boundary. OK, maybe there were some bombs here and there. Packages can be subjected to searches a bit more than a person themselves. You may have no problem with the DNA unzipping millimeter wave radiation; but it's still not warranted without proof. There has to be proof. If in the course of reasonable checks something turns up, then yes maybe some more invasive techniques are required. But you cannot randomly subject the populace to aggressive, invasive search without some form of reasonable suspicion. Just trying to get on a plane does not cut it. There has to be a limit, there has to be restraint, there has to be focus on the rights and liberties of the individual. Otherwise, we're bound for worse places than a terrorist could ever take us.
 
Catz, I love you. But I can't agree with you on this subject. There are limitations to what government can and cannot do. The aggressive and invasive measure that the TSA now currently runs is over that boundary. OK, maybe there were some bombs here and there. Packages can be subjected to searches a bit more than a person themselves. You may have no problem with the DNA unzipping millimeter wave radiation; but it's still not warranted without proof. There has to be proof. If in the course of reasonable checks something turns up, then yes maybe some more invasive techniques are required. But you cannot randomly subject the populace to aggressive, invasive search without some form of reasonable suspicion. Just trying to get on a plane does not cut it. There has to be a limit, there has to be restraint, there has to be focus on the rights and liberties of the individual. Otherwise, we're bound for worse places than a terrorist could ever take us.

I'm sorry, dude, I disagree. We are still an active target for these groups. The most recent attempted attack was 2 weeks ago. Flying is not a right. No one forces you to get onto a plane. You tacitly consent to security checks when you book your ticket.
 
We are still an active target for these groups.

We sure are - but it's not by blue-haired old ladies heading to Vegas or families of four heading to Disney that are out to get us. We need to Israelify our screening process and target those who are targeting us.
 
We sure are - but those groups aren't blue-haired bridge leagues and families heading to Disney. We need to Israelify our screening process.

You realize that Israeli-style screening requires 3-4 hours for EVERY SINGLE PASSENGER? And you're whining about 20 minutes in a TSA line while pushing for vast government encroachment into people's civil liberties?

Ridiculous. And stupid, to boot.
 
Last edited:
You realize that Israeli-style screening requires 3-4 hours for EVERY SINGLE PASSENGER? And you're whining about 20 minutes in a TSA line while pushing for vast government encroachment into people's civil liberties?

Ridiculous.

Incorrect - they have everyone on the plane inside of 40 minutes. You're just flat making stuff up now.


"It is mindboggling for us Israelis to look at what happens in North America, because we went through this 50 years ago," said Rafi Sela, the president of AR Challenges, a global transportation security consultancy. He's worked with the RCMP, the U.S. Navy Seals and airports around the world.

"Israelis, unlike Canadians and Americans, don't take s--- from anybody. When the security agency in Israel (the ISA) started to tighten security and we had to wait in line for — not for hours — but 30 or 40 minutes, all hell broke loose here. We said, 'We're not going to do this. You're going to find a way that will take care of security without touching the efficiency of the airport."

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/744199---israelification-high-security-little-bother
 
Last edited:
I'm sorry, dude, I disagree. We are still an active target for these groups. The most recent attempted attack was 2 weeks ago. Flying is not a right. No one forces you to get onto a plane. You tacitly consent to security checks when you book your ticket.

We're targets of a lot of groups. That's no excuse for unbridled government expansion against the rights and liberties of the individual. Flying in and of itself may not be a right, but we live in a Republic where free movement is assumed. We don't have check points in between states, we can go where we want. And there are times when flying is economically and temporally the only solution available. The US is a big place. If it were just Fort Collins to Denver, yeah I may be more inclined to agree. But there are over 3,000 miles coast to coast and it's not feasible to drive that. The airline companies take public money to stay afloat, and it takes public money to run the TSA, which is a government arm of enforcement and authority. Because of this, there has to be limitations. We do not unchain the dogs of the government against the people because of the ridiculously low probability of terrorist attack. And nothing will keep us 100% safe. In the absence of the absolute, I say that reasonable search is ok; but invasive and aggressive search is prohibited less there is evidence which necessitates it.
 
Last edited:
Incorrect - they have everyone on the plane inside of 40 minutes. You're just flat making stuff up now.

I think you don't know what you're talking about.

Sorry, The El-Al Israeli Security Model Will Never Work Here

Hacker News | Hi, I'm an Israeli who is at least passably familiar with how the security appar...

So tell us all, Topshelf. What aspects of the Israeli model would you like to implement in the U.S., and how would you do it in a country where there are 30,000+ flights per day? El Al has 40 planes, TOTAL, that fly to 48 destinations.
 
We're targets of a lot of groups. That's no excuse for unbridled government expansion against the rights and liberties of the individual. Flying in and of itself may not be a right, but we live in a Republic where free movement is assumed. We don't have check points in between states, we can go where we want. And there are times when flying is economically and temporally the only solution available. The US is a big place. If it were just Fort Collins to Denver, yeah I may be more inclined to agree. But there are over 3,000 miles coast to coast and it's not feasible to drive that. The airline companies take public money to stay afloat, and it takes public money to run the TSA, which is a government arm of enforcement and authority. Because of this, there has to be limitations. We do not unchain the dogs of the government against the people because of the ridiculously low probability of terrorist attack. And nothing will keep us 100% safe. In the absence of the absolute, I say that reasonable search is ok; but invasive and aggressive search is prohibited less there is evidence which necessitates it.

I understand that this is your opinion, but I think you're wrong. I still love you, of course, you're just flat wrong on this one.
 
I think you don't know what you're talking about.

Sorry, The El-Al Israeli Security Model Will Never Work Here

Hacker News | Hi, I'm an Israeli who is at least passably familiar with how the security appar...

So tell us all, Topshelf. What aspects of the Israeli model would you like to implement in the U.S., and how would you do it in a country where there are 30,000+ flights per day? El Al has 40 planes, TOTAL, that fly to 48 destinations.

Duex, I'm happy to have a conversation with you but if you're going to get just flat pissy - well, I'm not interested in that.
 
Last edited:
Because the full body scanners give you a very unhealthy dose of radiation that is why pilots are now refusing to go through them, and I wouldnt call feeling up someones "groan" or breasts a professional search. The reason they do the pat downs is to scare the public into using the body scanners.

You also get a dose of radiation flying in the plane from being high in the atmosphere. We are exposed to some radiation all the time, should people not get x-rays or MRIs?
 
Bomb-sniffing dogs and profiling.


That's pretty much it.
 
I understand that this is your opinion, but I think you're wrong. I still love you, of course, you're just flat wrong on this one.

Well then, we'll have to agree to disagree. I can't honestly put anything above the rights and liberties of the individual.
 
We sure are - but it's not by blue-haired old ladies heading to Vegas or families of four heading to Disney that are out to get us. We need to Israelify our screening process and target those who are targeting us.

One of the major things that Israelies use in their airport security is profiling based on a number of factors. One of them being race. How long do you think that such a system would be allowed to stand in the US with the way that people view profiling race?

Also you think that invasive pat downs are bad right? Well, guess what....If you're not isreali then you have a very high chance of being taken aside and questioned extensively AND you get a physical check. How many in this thread have been complaining about physical checks? You'd have to go through a lot more of em if we adopted the Israeli method. A lot more.

Here's a link for you all explaining Israeli Airport security a bit.

Israel’s Airport Security, Object Of Envy, Is Hard To Emulate Here
 
One of the major things that Israelies use in their airport security is profiling based on a number of factors. One of them being race. How long do you think that such a system would be allowed to stand in the US with the way that people view profiling race?

Our method is focused on checking your belongings for dangerous material - their style is checking your head for same. Articles I have read stress that the Israeli model asks very pointed questions, the questions don't really matter - how you answer them does. You go through about 4 levels of screening - and each of those security check points are manned by active military who are fully uniformed and armed. It's intended to be very intimidating. Each checkpoint has more questions - and they look right into your eyes and look for any sort of hesitancy.

I'm certain that their methodology does go over better there because their populace is more accustomed to the stresses of living in a more dangerous part of the world - but the same techniques should apply here. Baggy clothes should and is a factor. Age, Sex, Ethnicity - all of those factors should be taken into account.

As far as the ethnicity and religion issue - obviously it's a sensitive issue here, but if we ignore it - they are going to get one past us. It wasn't the TSA that stopped the underwear bomber and the shoe bomber - it was regular passengers like you and me who noticed a young, ethnic man behaving erratically. Those plots were stopped because someone had the temerity to look twice at the Arab guy.
 
Bomb-sniffing dogs and profiling.


That's pretty much it.

In other words: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. *

(*This Constitutional guarantee does not apply if you are a person of color, specifically a person who happens to look of middle eastern decent)
 
I've been watching the news for the last two days and seething with an anger I really don't know what to do with. When I purchase an airplane ticket I don't give up my civil liberties...they are still my civil liberties and if a man or woman attempts to do something inappropriate, we all have the right to defend ourselves. Sexual battery is still a crime.

I have two girls and a wife and cannot imagine them flying right now. The men that put thier hands of them...I would want rip thier arms off and beat them to death with their own bloody stumps.

And the most damnable thing about all of this is we all know--we freakin' know-- who the problem is...Muslims. But let the TSA cop-a-feel off of grandma and toddlers since they are just as likely to blow-up a plane as the guy named Muhammad who laces his shoes with fuses and packed his ass with enough C-4 to blow-up Detroit.

After all, we have to be sensitive to those who want to kill us of the rest of the world will think we're insensitive which seems to be the greatest crime of all is this world of multi-cultural crap.

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the terrorist are winning this war and have the further satisfaction of knowing the While House is occupied by a Muslim sympathizer.

It just pisses me off!!!
 
The reality is this - if someone is really dedicated to killing a lot of people, none of this **** is going to stop them. They could shove explosives up their ass before going through the hand search, or just skip the airport altogether and wreak some havoc in malls or other tightly packed public places.

I very much doubt that the supposed increase in overall safety from this program outweighs the economic and social costs. If it did, you'd see it in place in Congress. Last I checked, not only does the Capitol only use a metal detector, but Congressmen don't even have to go through the hassle.
 
Last edited:
Baron, say they did start racial profiling, how do you think the Muslim man with the wife and daughter feel about having security guards grope them? Do they really deserve that, to feel demeaned because of their religion? Or what if you have Coptic Christians, Jews, Sikhs, and members of other Middle East religions, all start feeling that they are being undeservedly targeted?
 
Undeservedly targeted like me?

Let's not forget that it was Muslims that caused this whole problem...period. I still have not seen any denounce what happened on 9/11. I've not seen any memorials built in honor of the victims of 9/11 in the Middle East.

But I tell ya what, I'll agree to forgo any checks on airplanes for everyone...just let the Muslims fly on thier own seperate jets.
 
Undeservedly targeted like me?
So you don't care about anyone else as long as it doesn't affect you?
Let's not forget that it was Muslims that caused this whole problem...period. I still have not seen any denounce what happened on 9/11. I've not seen any memorials built in honor of the victims of 9/11 in the Middle East.
Muslims Condemn Terrorist Attacks
September 11 Terrorist Attack - Muslim Scholars Condemn 9/11 Terrorist Attack
Prominent American Muslims denounce terror committed in the name of Islam
Statements Against Terror

And why should another country build a memorial to what happened in America?
But I tell ya what, I'll agree to forgo any checks on airplanes for everyone...just let the Muslims fly on thier own seperate jets.

Good idea, when has segregation ever gone wrong.
 
“So you don't care about anyone else as long as it doesn't affect you?” - spud_meister

I guess you decided to over-look that part about my family, babies and grandmothers, huh?

“And why should another country build a memorial to what happened in America?” - spud_meister

As has been well discussed in many circles, the monuments would allow the populations of those Muslim nations know that their governments do not agree with the 9/11 attacks and are mournful that the attacks took place.

This is not a new topic by any means.

“Good idea, when has segregation ever gone wrong.” - spud-meister

Hey, if you've got a better idea from keeping Muslim terrorist from killing more people with planes then let's hear it. I have no problem making Muslims fly on Muslim only planes.

It makes me wonder how many decent Muslims would give-up ever flying again knowing that were being put at such risk.

By the way, you might want to remember they are still actively trying to kill us…even the multi-cultural, elitist, Muslim sympathizers who take their sides.
 
Back
Top Bottom