View Poll Results: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

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  • invasive pat downs

    12 10.62%
  • Non invasive pat downs.

    31 27.43%
  • Subjected to radiation so you and or your children can be virtually stripped searched.

    17 15.04%
  • Real strip searches

    11 9.73%
  • Cavity search.

    53 46.90%
  • walking through a metal detector.

    52 46.02%
  • other

    29 25.66%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

  1. #481
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    If you have nothing to hide you should not be afraid of the new machine. If you are afraid of someone looking at a virtual 3D version of you on a small 5x11 monitor that shows your private area's then traveling by plane is not for you. Use the alternative means known as train, bus, or car.
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexenstar View Post
    If you have nothing to hide you should not be afraid of the new machine.
    Classic... the 'if you have nothing to hide' defense. There are potential hazards to these new machines that have not been adequately studied.

    The precedent has been previously set that "what do you have to hide" does not construe probable cause to search.

    If you are afraid of someone looking at a virtual 3D version of you on a small 5x11 monitor that shows your private area's then traveling by plane is not for you. Use the alternative means known as train, bus, or car.
    What you don't get is that if there is no pushback while these machines are JUST at airports, then eventually these will be moved in such a way that you must go through in order to get on a train or bus or to go to the mall, everywhere.

    Edit : On top of that the lies that have been told :
    1 - they can't save the images
    2 - the images are low res (they are HIGH res, and the images shown are mostly negatives)
    3 - There's no radiation... then 'there's just a little radiation' (then 20-50 TIMES initial estimates)
    etc
    Last edited by BmanMcfly; 12-30-10 at 03:29 PM.

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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Classic... the 'if you have nothing to hide' defense. There are potential hazards to these new machines that have not been adequately studied.

    The precedent has been previously set that "what do you have to hide" does not construe probable cause to search.



    What you don't get is that if there is no pushback while these machines are JUST at airports, then eventually these will be moved in such a way that you must go through in order to get on a train or bus or to go to the mall, everywhere.

    Edit : On top of that the lies that have been told :
    1 - they can't save the images
    2 - the images are low res (they are HIGH res, and the images shown are mostly negatives)
    3 - There's no radiation... then 'there's just a little radiation' (then 20-50 TIMES initial estimates)
    etc
    Radiation is the only real problem I see especially if you travel alot. My defense is simple logic that many try to say isn't valid because they can't provide any real deterrent from the logical. Now that the technology is here and can be used if we refuse to use it and another plane is brought down killing thousands of civilians the public would blame the Airlines and the Government for not taking the needed steps to protect the American Citizens, you cant have your cake and eat it too either we put in the security measures or we dont and take a chance of people dying, its a dangerous game we play.
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Wait a second :
    "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, [u]and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."[/b]

    I just have to first make sure that we're talking about the same fourth.
    yes we are and that right is surrendered once you agree to take part in those services, they arent forceably taken away from you, just like entering my club

    this isnt rocket science
    it seem like you want to imply that people DONT have those rights in the 4th, of course they do but if you want to enter my club I can search you if you dont want me to don come in


    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Good, you at least have a bit of humanity left in you... but you're a fool for thinking that this type of humiliation is NEEDED.
    this is exactly why YOU are the name you called me and why you are crying
    "humanity" lmao
    another appeal to emotion and nothing of substance as to way you say the policy violates the 4th which it does not LMAO

    "your" opinion of my humanity is meaningless lol nor is your opinion of what humiliation is, if you feel that way dont fly, still doesnt make it against the 4th LMAO



    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Flying is not the part that gets violated... it is your right to be secure in your person... part of why a peeping tom is a criminal. Also, flying does not serve as probable cause to be effectively strip searched or patted down from head to toe.
    again it is NOT violated because you submit to it, nobody is forcing you to fly, dont like it, dont fly, it doesnt have to be "probably" by YOUR opinion LMAO its voluntary



    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Actually, the search IS FORCED on people. Sometimes because they are famous, or got big breasts, or people with a hip replacement that sets off the metal detectors even naked. Even if it's only 3% of people that are forced into the search, they are generally not forced into this choice for any reason that would count as 'probable cause'.
    it is not FORCED, you know its going to happen, if you dont want it to dont fly, you have a choice
    also you other appeals to emotion dont work, try them on someone that cares

    if somebody famous or hot or old gets treated unfairly that needs addressed but that still doesnt make the POLICIES against the 4th, it only means somebody did their job wrong or abused their power





    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    The airports themselves are public property. Tax money paid for those airports... So, while your dance club is private, airports are like walking on the streets.
    until you choose to fly, then your BS example goes out the window, whoooooops LMAO
    jeez, does common sense escape you this easily, like i said early this is why I think you are young you compare apples and oranges and think they are the same

    I went to the airport just last week, guess what? I never got searched, why? I was just there picking and dropping people off and to shop I wasnt partaking in the flying services that they deemed that need secured lol



    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Yes, it's been accepted that there needs to be a level of security at airports... at first they would search based on probable cause... THEN came metal detectors designed to add a level of security that was reasonable and did not invade a persons space.

    Now, they've gone beyond what is 'reasonable' searches into 'unreasonable searches' that are typically reserved for prisoners who have already been found guilty of a crime.
    again NOTHING more than your OPINION that still has no bearing because you surrend to the searches and it STILL does not violate the 4th


    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    So I really fail to see your logic, and can't see how you're overstating the position to say that this is constitutional when it has yet to have it's constitutionality challenged.
    easy because its not until its challenged and it will LOSE if its based on the 4th
    Im aware you dont see the logic thats clear, its not your understanding of the 4th that gets you in to trouble its how you are wrongly dramatically attempting to apply it.

    in this case the law is pretty simple, you subject yourself to the search, its voluntary

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    At the very least, Chertoff should be indited for the delayed payoff he got for purchasing the machines... that payoff being to become the CEO of the company involved in these machines.
    ok, this has nothing to do with the 4th either

    unbelievable how dramatic you are lol
    like i said im fine with you not liking the policies but they dont violate the 4th

    let me know when find something about the POLICIES that violate the 4th and not just hurt your feelings
    Last edited by AGENT J; 12-30-10 at 03:50 PM.
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    yes we are and that right is surrendered once you agree to take part in those services, they arent forceably taken away from you, just like entering my club
    The difference again :
    - Private club = private property = private rules
    - Airport = PUBLIC property = common law = constitutionally protected.

    this isnt rocket science
    it seem like you want to imply that people DONT have those rights in the 4th, of course they do but if you want to enter my club I can search you if you dont want me to don come in
    Right, and if your 'search procedure' violates the law, then your 'security' should be arrested for it's criminality. Your willingness to put up with entry in the club does not allow security to violate the law.

    "your" opinion of my humanity is meaningless lol nor is your opinion of what humiliation is, if you feel that way dont fly, still doesnt make it against the 4th LMAO
    You're confusing this issue... this issue is not a 'right to fly issue' this is a 'right to be secure in your persons' issue. No warrant + no probable cause = no right to have me virtually stripped down. Now, I could even accept a quick frisk... but again, that's not what is at issue... we're talking about people reaching INTO pants, up shirts, among a laundry list of other abuses justified in the name of security.

    Just because the TSA CLAIMS that they could do something does NOT make it legal or constitutional... just because the government signs their checks and gives them a little fake badge.

    again it is NOT violated because you submit to it, nobody is forcing you to fly, dont like it, dont fly, it doesnt have to be "probably" by YOUR opinion LMAO its voluntary
    Again IT IS violated because nobody can walk up to anybody else and force them to be photographed naked or groped... that is criminal.

    Also your logic of 'choice' negating 'rights' is absolute nonsense... that's like saying you can remove your miranda rights because you chose to commit a crime... so, it's your 'choice' to go to the mall, so we should have this type of security there... it's your 'choice' to take a bus, so we should have screenings there... it's your choice to walk the street, so we should have screenings there...

    DOn't you see how asinine the logic is... and then you add in LMAO LAMO LAMO and then say that OTHERS are on the offensive... give me a break buddy.

    it is not FORCED, you know its going to happen, if you dont want it to dont fly, you have a choice
    also you other appeals to emotion dont work, try them on someone that cares
    It was the womans choice to get in Ted Bundy's car... the women should have known, so if Ted Bundy had a badge he wouldn't be a criminal.

    Don't you see how twisted your logic is??

    if somebody famous or hot or old gets treated unfairly that needs addressed but that still doesnt make the POLICIES against the 4th, it only means somebody did their job wrong or abused their power
    That is their POLICY to abuse people... THAT IS WHY IT IS UNREASONABLE search which is WHY it will be found to be unconstitutional.

    If it DOES NOT, then you'll get your way and you and everyone you know will get groped and naked scanned ALOT MORE OFTEN then just when you 'choose' to fly.

    But I almost forgot, you thought that one clip where the child is screaming in her parents arms while security literally molests her... you said that there was "nothing wrong" with that... so, I'll just take into consideration what you consider freedom...

    until you choose to fly, then your BS example goes out the window, whoooooops LMAO
    jeez, does common sense escape you this easily, like i said early this is why I think you are young you compare apples and oranges and think they are the same
    WHAT??? No seriously, I think I've been giving you too much credit LMAO... does it hurt???

    What's this common sense you speak of?? That there's a difference between 'public property' and 'private property' whose distinctions seem lost on you.

    I went to the airport just last week, guess what? I never got searched, why? I was just there picking and dropping people off and to shop I wasnt partaking in the flying services that they deemed that need secured lol
    lol because lol thats lol not lol where LMAO the LMAO abuses lol of lMAO power lol are LAMO happening.

    again NOTHING more than your OPINION that still has no bearing because you surrend to the searches and it STILL does not violate the 4th
    By what merit???? Remember I'm not asking to repeat your tune 'not the 4th LAMO' ... I'm asking you to explain by what merit that either :
    a - That TSA searches are 'reasonable'
    b - that they are based on 'probable cause'
    c - how they can circumvent the legal requirement of 'probable cause'

    ALso, you do realize that this is ALSO a case where you are guilty until proven innocent. OR do you forget that in this country the presumption is of innocence?

    easy because its not until its challenged and it will LOSE if its based on the 4th
    Im aware you dont see the logic thats clear, its not your understanding of the 4th that gets you in to trouble its how you are wrongly dramatically attempting to apply it.

    in this case the law is pretty simple, you subject yourself to the search, its voluntary
    That's not valid logic... It's a non-sequitar "choose to fly != giving up rights to protect against unlawful searches"

    No matter how many times you repeat yourself, it does not change the fact that these types of searches are violations of people's rights... it will be challenged... and it's actually DISHONEST OF YOU to say that it DOES NOT violate the fourth UNTIL THIS CHALLENGE goes through the courts.

    ok, this has nothing to do with the 4th either

    unbelievable how dramatic you are lol
    like i said im fine with you not liking the policies but they dont violate the 4th

    let me know when find something about the POLICIES that violate the 4th and not just hurt your feelings
    LMAO!! You were so busy repeating your "rape my wife for the fourth" spiel that you don't even care about the criminality involved in how these got put into place in the first place.
    Last edited by BmanMcfly; 12-30-10 at 05:39 PM.

  6. #486
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    My hat is off to you, Bman. I usually don't have the patience to spell this stuff out. You can't voluntarily choose to wave your rights. It just doesn't work that way. You can't volunteer to have your foot chopped off, not without a legal imperative, like a medical emergency. If you tell me "you can hack off my foot", and I do so, I've committed a crime. Just because I don't pitch a fit in the airport, or submit to this search under the threat of force (because that's what it is), doesn't mean that the TSA can commit a crime. This choice nonsense... it's gotten old. A choice made under duress is no choice at all. Choosing to fly on an airplane does not constitute probable cause, for ANYTHING.
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    The difference again :
    - Private club = private property = private rules
    - Airport = PUBLIC property = common law = constitutionally protected. .
    Wrong
    Once you choose to fly the on the plane and partake in the service is NOT public
    next

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Right, and if your 'search procedure' violates the law, then your 'security' should be arrested for it's criminality. Your willingness to put up with entry in the club does not allow security to violate the law. .
    RIGHT
    BUT
    The policy does NOT violate the law
    next

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    You're confusing this issue... this issue is not a 'right to fly issue' this is a 'right to be secure in your persons' issue. No warrant + no probable cause = no right to have me virtually stripped down. Now, I could even accept a quick frisk... but again, that's not what is at issue... we're talking about people reaching INTO pants, up shirts, among a laundry list of other abuses justified in the name of security. .
    WRONG
    You are confusing the issue
    Fact is only in your fantasy land if flying was a right would you have a leg to stand on. Since it isnít a right and you volunteer for it there is no violation of the 4th
    Next

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Just because the TSA CLAIMS that they could do something does NOT make it legal or constitutional... just because the government signs their checks and gives them a little fake badge. .
    RIGHT
    But who said thatís all it takes?
    NOBOBDY lol
    next


    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Again IT IS violated because nobody can walk up to anybody else and force them to be photographed naked or groped... that is criminal. .
    WRONG it is NOT violated
    RIGHT nobody can just walk up to you and FORCE you to be groped BUT thatís not what TSA is doing LMAO
    next
    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Also your logic of 'choice' negating 'rights' is absolute nonsense... that's like saying you can remove your miranda rights because you chose to commit a crime.
    Really are you this clueless? Miranda rights? Choosing to commit a crime? That makes no sense, no that is not ďsayingĒ the same thing
    Apples and oranges




    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    ... so, it's your 'choice' to go to the mall, so we should have this type of security there... it's your 'choice' to take a bus, so we should have screenings there... it's your choice to walk the street, so we should have screenings there... .
    We have been through the mall example, YES the mall could do a TSA style security if they wanted to, it also would not violate the 4th, you could just not go there

    And the street thing is total nonsense just you abandoning logic again and being stupid, more apples and oranges
    next

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    It was the womans choice to get in Ted Bundy's car... the women should have known, so if Ted Bundy had a badge he wouldn't be a criminal.

    Don't you see how twisted your logic is?? .
    YES
    I do see how twisted YOUR logic is in that example
    To bad that has NOTHING to do with TSA, more apples and oranges, you should open up a fruit market
    Nor is it my logic its facts and reality
    next



    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    That is their POLICY to abuse people... THAT IS WHY IT IS UNREASONABLE search which is WHY it will be found to be unconstitutional. .
    WRONG
    It is not the POLICY to abuse people thatís just an out right lie by you, just you being mega dramatic again LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    If it DOES NOT, then you'll get your way and you and everyone you know will get groped and naked scanned ALOT MORE OFTEN then just when you 'choose' to fly. .
    WRONG
    Its not ďmyĒ way thatís just you trying to appeal to emotion, you failed
    next

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    But I almost forgot, you thought that one clip where the child is screaming in her parents arms while security literally molests her... you said that there was "nothing wrong" with that... so, I'll just take into consideration what you consider freedom... .
    A little kid having a hissy fit over something he didnít want to do doesnít bother me, his parent was right there and they volunteered him for the search too

    My brother used to run around the doctors office because he didnít want to be naked and hated shots, guess we should fire all doctors they violated his 4th!!!!! Lmao see how DUMB that is



    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    WHAT??? No seriously, I think I've been giving you too much credit LMAO... does it hurt???

    What's this common sense you speak of?? That there's a difference between 'public property' and 'private property' whose distinctions seem lost on you. .
    Like I said the plane and its services are NOT public, common sense seems lost on you
    next

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    lol because lol thats lol not lol where LMAO the LMAO abuses lol of lMAO power lol are LAMO happening. .
    Translation: you were proved wrong again and are trying to deflect, your example was poor and wrong and now you are trying to save face

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    By what merit???? Remember I'm not asking to repeat your tune 'not the 4th LAMO' ... I'm asking you to explain by what merit that either :
    a - That TSA searches are 'reasonable'
    b - that they are based on 'probable cause'
    c - how they can circumvent the legal requirement of 'probable cause'.
    A- this is subjective what I see as reasonable you may not and vice versa, it also isnít are cll its TSAs call what keep their plane and customers safe not to mention totally moot since you submit to the search
    B- see end of A, probable isnít need since you submit
    C- see end of A, they are circumventing they simply arenít violating it because you submit

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    ALso, you do realize that this is ALSO a case where you are guilty until proven innocent. OR do you forget that in this country the presumption is of innocence? .
    More appeal to emotion that is meaningless to partake in said service, another fail, you submit to the searches so meaningless
    next


    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    That's not valid logic... It's a non-sequitar "choose to fly != giving up rights to protect against unlawful searches"

    No matter how many times you repeat yourself, it does not change the fact that these types of searches are violations of people's rights... it will be challenged... and it's actually DISHONEST OF YOU to say that it DOES NOT violate the fourth UNTIL THIS CHALLENGE goes through the courts. .
    Its 100% valid and its your WRONG opinion
    It is 100% FACTUAL that it does NOT violate the 4th, facts stay the same whether you like them or not, more proof is your totally inability to explain how the 4th is violated LMAO.

    It might be overturned and thatís fine by me but it wil NOT be on the grounds of violating the 4th
    next



    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    LMAO!! You were so busy repeating your "rape my wife for the fourth" spiel that you don't even care about the criminality involved in how these got put into place in the first place.
    More random blabber by you and off topic rants and appeal to emotions

    Like I said when you find something about the policies that violate the 4th PLEASE let me know because so far you have nothing but your butt hurt feeling and the sky is falling mentality
    Last edited by AGENT J; 12-30-10 at 07:31 PM.
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    My hat is off to you, Bman. I usually don't have the patience to spell this stuff out. You can't voluntarily choose to wave your rights. It just doesn't work that way. You can't volunteer to have your foot chopped off, not without a legal imperative, like a medical emergency. If you tell me "you can hack off my foot", and I do so, I've committed a crime. Just because I don't pitch a fit in the airport, or submit to this search under the threat of force (because that's what it is), doesn't mean that the TSA can commit a crime. This choice nonsense... it's gotten old. A choice made under duress is no choice at all. Choosing to fly on an airplane does not constitute probable cause, for ANYTHING.
    only problem is im still right, there is no violation of the 4th

    a person absolutly can waive rights in circumstances
    a cop can walk up to you and ask to search you, you can say no, but if you say yes he gets to search you, this is common sense, and if he finds anything illegal you are beat

    you can think it sucks or its wrong or sad or get angry about it and I agree in ways but it still does not violate the 4th

    to many people letting their emotions get in the way of reality and facts
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    The fourth amendment only concerns on your person, your home, and cars and possibly even your luggage but after that not much else. And for future Reference the Government doesn't much care for our rights anymore they are more and more trying to find and usually do find loop holes in all the laws that we currently have.
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    The difference again :
    - Private club = private property = private rules
    - Airport = PUBLIC property = common law = constitutionally protected.
    I challenge you to prove that the government owns any airport beyond that of military bases and is used by thousands of private civilians.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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