View Poll Results: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

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  • invasive pat downs

    12 10.62%
  • Non invasive pat downs.

    31 27.43%
  • Subjected to radiation so you and or your children can be virtually stripped searched.

    17 15.04%
  • Real strip searches

    11 9.73%
  • Cavity search.

    53 46.90%
  • walking through a metal detector.

    52 46.02%
  • other

    29 25.66%
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Thread: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

  1. #441
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Did you, as a taxpayer, provide more then 1 cent towards the building and / or operation of that airport??
    Irrelevant. My money as a tax payer is also going towards 2 wars. Doesn't mean that I should be able to say how those wars are conducted.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    What's the limit then?? How far before it becomes a 'violation'?? Do they have to MURDER people before it's a violation?? Or are you going to say that they can do that because it's 'your choice'...
    It goes to far when they force you through those check points. Since you are not forced to go through them it is not a violation.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Rights are NOT delineated by CHOICE.
    People waive thier rights all the time. As already stated people have the right to waive thier right to have a lawyer present during any court proceedings or any interrogations by police officials. People may also waive thier right for a cop to have a warrant to search private property. In general, a person has the right to waive thier rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    You have the right to be secure in your PERSONS and your property against unreasonable search and seizure. Now, the metal detectors were SPECIFICALLY designed not to touch a person and setting off the alarm provided 'justification' for a further search, a quick pat-down / wand down. This was determined to be 'reasonable'...
    Correct. If you are refering to the court case that I think you are it was also determined that the choice to go through the security checkpoint was enough to waive a persons 4th amendment rights away. It was actually a major deciding factor in the case, along with the "reasonable" part of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Now, if you're talking in the sense that this hasn't been challenged constitutionally then you WOULD have a point, but that's not the point you're making... you're making the point that TSA goon squads are above the law. That's it that's all...and if you can't see that... well... god bless you.
    I don't know about him but I state what I do based on past case law. It is not hard to take that past case law and apply it to this also. It will be interesting to see how the courts eventually rule on this bit. But from past history I doubt that it will be any different from past decisions. Yes I fully admit that I may be wrong on this and that some how the choice of waiveing your rights away is not sufficient to allow these new TSA measures to continue. I doubt that I am wrong, but it is possible.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    The bottom line :
    - Unwanted touch is assault.
    Is it unwanted when you voluntarily go to the airport knowing what will happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    - Unwanted touch over the clothes of the private areas is an arrestable misdemeanor.
    Is it unwanted when you voluntarily go to the airport knowing what will happen?

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    - Unwanted touch UNDER the clothes is SEXUAL ASSAULT and under any normal circumstance would see the person charged and put in jail for 5-10 years + mandatory registration as a sex offender.
    Is it unwanted when you voluntarily go to the airport knowing what will happen? (BTW since when do the TSA agents touch under the clothes?)

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    That's for everyone, including if you've gone through the 2 hour training session to be a TSA agent and got your plastic badge. A COP, is NOT allowed to touch anyone like that if there isn't very SPECIFC and VERY limited circumstances.
    That's funny, when I was arrested many years ago I was touched like that when I was frisked.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    Also, any radiation is bad... these scanners are NOT enough to cause any damage from a single scan, BUT your REFUSAL to be put through that machine DOES NOT provide justification for the further search... that's been legal precedent forever.
    According to case law once you get to the check point and start going through it you may not refuse to go through the rest of the security procedures. Sorry can't remember the name of the court case atm but in case someone else remembers I am refering to the guy that tried to refuse further security screenings in Hawaii because he had drugs on him. (sorry, am too lazy to look it up again atm)

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    A cop cannot walk up to you and say 'let me search your bags'... and you ask for probable cause to search and he tells you, well, your refusal to let me IS probable cause... THAT is unconstitutional.
    This is correct. But if you do give your assent and then once the cop starts in on his search you decide that you don't want him to continue the cop is legally able to continue his search regardless of you changing your mind and saying no. This is what happens in an airport when you are asked to go through the body scanner and then, on your refuseal, you are required to go through the more invasive pat down. So to sum up 1: you attempt to go through airport security which gives your assent to be searched 2: you refuse to use the body scanner 3: because you already attempted to go through the check point and there by giving your assent to be searched you are required to take the pat down search.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    I don't know what kind of banana republic you aspire to live in, but you should be ashamed to think of yourself as american if you honestly believe that people should succumb to harassment or worse in order to travel.
    Don't know where you live but people here have a choice of going through airport security. As such they are not "succumbing" to harrassment. They are voluntarily going through the checkpoint. As such it is not considered harrasment. Harrasment is doing something against a persons will.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    How about we just go right back 500 years and reinstate primae noctis?? Would that be freedom enough for your liking???
    I honestly don't know what "primae noctis" is.

    Quote Originally Posted by BmanMcfly View Post
    God I wish all you anti-american scum would just move to china or the koreas where you don't have these pesky rights... then EVERYONE would be happier.
    And I wish that whenever someone has a different view point on a political/legal stand point people would stop calling them "anti-American". Ad homs does nothing for your side of the arguement. it actually detracts from it.
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  2. #442
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    It's called a ****ing example, and just because you say it isn't a violation in of itself doesn't make it so.
    A very bad example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    A lot of good points have been made by Mcfly that you seem to either not understand or missed all together. For example, we have continually given examples as to how choice or a lack therefore has nothing to do whether a specific act is or is not a rights violation.
    Each point of his was refuted. And I have yet to see any valid example that is applicable to the main discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    As for not flying, again, it is not as simple as you make it seem - people who work on business often need to fly, if you have to travel long distances over land - or over water especially, and do so quickly, you need to fly.
    This to has been refuted. Sorry, not going to go through them AGAIN just because you brought it up again. Go back and read the posts that I have made in this thread about it.
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  3. #443
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    When you go through a checkpoint, you know you will get screened in some form, not felt up or digitally strip search.. Again, SINCE WHEN was flying in of itself enough of a waiver, and how do you justify repeating the same goddamned things over and over without, I dunno, PROVING IT, and expecting us to just buy it? The courts have ruled on the constitutionality of airport security in general, but never yet had to deal with these specific measures.

    And again, flying is not so much a choice when you look deeper into who flies, why, and the how of specific circumstances, but even if it weren't, so what? Why do you and other people supporting these measures keep on clinging on to this bit of irrelevant opinion?
    Last edited by Travelsonic; 12-18-10 at 01:29 AM.
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  4. #444
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Irrelevant. My money as a tax payer is also going towards 2 wars. Doesn't mean that I should be able to say how those wars are conducted.
    Right, but paying taxes turns the airport into public property... this is important because of the precedent set here as well...

    It goes to far when they force you through those check points. Since you are not forced to go through them it is not a violation.
    They do 'force' you through... flying in today's society is NOT necessarily a choice. So, if the choice is 'keep your job' or 'keep your dignity' most people will be forced to give up their dignity.

    People waive thier rights all the time. As already stated people have the right to waive thier right to have a lawyer present during any court proceedings or any interrogations by police officials. People may also waive thier right for a cop to have a warrant to search private property. In general, a person has the right to waive thier rights.
    - Going to court pro se can be an effective legal tactic if you know your rights.
    - In an interrogation room, being upfront without a lawyer present is often the preferable choice.
    - People also waive their rights to sue the cops for the abuse of power.

    What's the difference with your examples : You are given the CLEAR choice.
    - A judge will talk you into getting a lawyer
    - An officer MUST read your miranda rights.
    - If a cop really wants to search he will make your life hell until you let him... now, if you are ignorant of your rights as a citizen then it's all too easy for you to get railroaded... but if you are empowered with the knowledge then you are the one that can remain in control...

    Correct. If you are refering to the court case that I think you are it was also determined that the choice to go through the security checkpoint was enough to waive a persons 4th amendment rights away. It was actually a major deciding factor in the case, along with the "reasonable" part of course.
    Yes, an the reason why it was 'reasonable' had to do with the machine not being intrusive, that it not impact your being secure in your persons, etc... This new back scatter machine goes beyond the 'reasonable'... let's say it wasn't a machine... stripping down naked to get on a plane IS by any stretch a violation of your rights, it is an act of humiliation and domination. Then, if you decide to stand up for yourself and to NOT succumb to this violation then you are forced to undergo a different violation of an 'advanced pat-down'... just like 'advanced interrogation' is a PC name for torture, this enhanced pat-down is a PC name for 'groping', 'sexual assault', 'molestation' and possibly a few other choice names you could give.

    If your 'choice' is between two violations of your rights that is not a choice at all... I remember hearing that choice once before :
    You have the choice "give me all your money or I blow your brains out"... that's the type of choice this is approaching.

    I don't know about him but I state what I do based on past case law. It is not hard to take that past case law and apply it to this also. It will be interesting to see how the courts eventually rule on this bit. But from past history I doubt that it will be any different from past decisions. Yes I fully admit that I may be wrong on this and that some how the choice of waiveing your rights away is not sufficient to allow these new TSA measures to continue. I doubt that I am wrong, but it is possible.
    I know of at least 5-6 cases that are pending against the TSA already...

    Is it unwanted when you voluntarily go to the airport knowing what will happen?
    This first one, the touching alone wouldn't be called an assault against a security agent, even if they are unqualified and untrained.

    Is it unwanted when you voluntarily go to the airport knowing what will happen?
    How does a police officer pat you down after you've been arrested :
    - Check the legs
    - Check your waist
    - Pat around your sides
    Takes about 15 seconds, no need to touch breasts or genitals... SO, the TSA is going above and beyond what a uniform police officer is ALLOWED TO DO without a warrant.

    Further, you don't 'know' it will happen, further down you admit that you don't even know what the TSA is doing.

    Is it unwanted when you voluntarily go to the airport knowing what will happen? (BTW since when do the TSA agents touch under the clothes?)
    You should have paid attention before commenting on how 'reasonable' this is... go to youtube; search TSA - groping, sexual assault, molestation, under clothes, etc... as separate search terms... I could easily show about 10-15 clips, going through the range of TSA abuses... and YES, this DOES include feeling INSIDE YOUR PANTS and SQUEEZING.

    Any more intrusive and it would have to be called a cavity search. On CHILDREN too...

    That's funny, when I was arrested many years ago I was touched like that when I was frisked.
    A cop cannot legally grab your genitals without being in a VERY specific set of circumstances, and ONLY after you've been actually arrested for something.... but even then, most of the time they will not go that far... If you get thrown into a prison cell, I'm told the search is a bit more intrusive, but that's part of setting the 'who is the boss'....

    According to case law once you get to the check point and start going through it you may not refuse to go through the rest of the security procedures. Sorry can't remember the name of the court case atm but in case someone else remembers I am refering to the guy that tried to refuse further security screenings in Hawaii because he had drugs on him. (sorry, am too lazy to look it up again atm)
    Ya, there was another case recently, not gone to court yet, but the TSA told him that he could just leave and forgo his flight... he left and police chased him down and charged him civilly for 11000$... That's not so important though... the fact is that everyone at the gut level KNOWS that these machines are a violation, they represent a health risk, they are ineffective (as proven by the fact that TSA searches people with the biggest breasts first, ignoring those with guns), etc... so people refuse to succumb to this one act of humiliation and forced into another act of humiliation.

    So, just because there's been no specific precedence, any common sense should tell you that this goes above and beyond any 'reasonable' search... and so is a violation of our rights...

    And actually, given your knowledge of case law, it's been found that the right to travel is a cornerstone of a free-society... so if you're desire is to reduce or eliminate that right... well, as I said in the last post, maybe your views are contrary to the views of a free society and so would be preferable for yourself to move to a country that does not give its' citizens any rights... this would allow you to be a slave like you want, and would allow me and others to remain free in this country.

    This is correct. But if you do give your assent and then once the cop starts in on his search you decide that you don't want him to continue the cop is legally able to continue his search regardless of you changing your mind and saying no. This is what happens in an airport when you are asked to go through the body scanner and then, on your refuseal, you are required to go through the more invasive pat down. So to sum up 1: you attempt to go through airport security which gives your assent to be searched 2: you refuse to use the body scanner 3: because you already attempted to go through the check point and there by giving your assent to be searched you are required to take the pat down search.
    But here's where it goes unreasonable : The wand USED to be a viable option... NOT ANYMORE.

    Hell, even taking your shoes off is unreasonable... it's an act of domination. Then the metal detector was reasonable... but now if you set off the alarm instead of getting wanded to see that it was due to a hip replacement, or a knee replacement, it's instantly... Ok what do you want, to be stripped naked or felt up???

    And somehow you find this acceptable???

    Don't know where you live but people here have a choice of going through airport security. As such they are not "succumbing" to harrassment. They are voluntarily going through the checkpoint. As such it is not considered harrasment. Harrasment is doing something against a persons will.
    Where's the way to get on the plane without going through security?? If one does not exist then they are FORCING you through... oh but just travelling to europe, you should have known and taken your car. F*** that noise.

    I honestly don't know what "primae noctis" is.
    That's where the state (originally the king) has the 'right of the first night' once you get married.

    And I wish that whenever someone has a different view point on a political/legal stand point people would stop calling them "anti-American". Ad homs does nothing for your side of the arguement. it actually detracts from it.
    The ONLY part of that which was ad hom is the 'scum' part of that... but bottom line, we have rights as individuals in this country... and anyone that would find it preferable to limit / end those rights IS ANTI-AMERICAN. End of story.

    If you don't like living in a free society and would prefer to live in a closed / heavily controlled society then you might find it preferable to move to places like China, or the koreas... it's not an insult, it should serve as a wake-up call to what you are supporting, but beyond the 'scum' part of that statement it is not an insult... if you take offense then you should realize what it is you are pushing for...

    And if you don't realize, I'll give you a hint of how things started based on another historical precedent : "Papers, please." (Then again, we've been showing our 'papers' for YEARS, probably decades)

  5. #445
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    When you go through a checkpoint, you know you will get screened in some form, not felt up or digitally strip search..
    LMAO at this fantasy who doesnt know this? and isnt informed of this while at the airport in some way? thats just dumb

    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    Again, SINCE WHEN was flying in of itself enough of a waiver, and how do you justify repeating the same goddamned things over and over without, I dunno, PROVING IT, and expecting us to just buy it? The courts have ruled on the constitutionality of airport security in general, but never yet had to deal with these specific measures.
    the prove is COMMON SENSE if that escapes you not my probalem but you are waving your rights because you KNOW this is what is required to fly theres nothing to discuss. Theres only your spin to discuss and thats a waste of time.

    when I go to the court house I KNOW i cant carry my weapon inside and I KNOW I will be patted down, wanded and go through a detector, if I dont kow there are signs everywhere telling me this. If I refuse to do this I DONT GET TO GO IN, pretty simple and cut and dry. I dont get to go to the course house and REFUSE and make up some bologna about my rights are being violated.

    No search = no entry
    no turning over of my gun = no entry
    just like
    no search = no fly

    COMMON SENSE



    Quote Originally Posted by Travelsonic View Post
    And again, flying is not so much a choice when you look deeper into who flies, why, and the how of specific circumstances, but even if it weren't, so what? Why do you and other people supporting these measures keep on clinging on to this bit of irrelevant opinion?
    its not irrelevant at all to those who understand the constitution and rights
    since FLYING isnt a right and its a commercial flight, public flight, and at this point can even be argued to have national security risk, if the requirements to fly are that you have to go through searches then thats the way it is lol

    the very fact that flying is a CHOICE is HUGELY relevant because its the whole reason why there is no rights violation LMAO

    not shocked you dont see that.
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  6. #446
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    People should be searched and scanned so the F-in plane is safe.

    Why is this thread still active? This is a not a difficult topic. Im surprised it got over 30 responses.
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  7. #447
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    The best way to counter terrorism is to allow pilots and stewardesses to carry loaded pistols. Other than that, a basic metal detector, a pat-down/strip-search for ultra-suspicious activity.

  8. #448
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant Noodle View Post
    Why is this thread still active? This is a not a difficult topic. Im surprised it got over 30 responses.
    Because the issue is not over the goal, but the means.

    It's there in black and ****ing white.

    The issue is not with the concept of screening, but the methods employed.
    Nationalism in high dosages may be hazardous to your health. Please consult a psychiatrist before beginning a regular regimen, and if feelings of elitism and douchbaggery continue, discontinue immediately before you become unable to do so on your own.

  9. #449
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant Noodle View Post
    People should be searched and scanned so the F-in plane is safe.

    Why is this thread still active? This is a not a difficult topic. Im surprised it got over 30 responses.
    because people and their dramatize, victim ways who dont understand the constitution nor reality.
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  10. #450
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Centrist77 View Post
    because people and their dramatize, victim ways who dont understand the constitution nor reality.

    Oh the irony.
    Nationalism in high dosages may be hazardous to your health. Please consult a psychiatrist before beginning a regular regimen, and if feelings of elitism and douchbaggery continue, discontinue immediately before you become unable to do so on your own.

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