View Poll Results: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

Voters
113. You may not vote on this poll
  • invasive pat downs

    12 10.62%
  • Non invasive pat downs.

    31 27.43%
  • Subjected to radiation so you and or your children can be virtually stripped searched.

    17 15.04%
  • Real strip searches

    11 9.73%
  • Cavity search.

    53 46.90%
  • walking through a metal detector.

    52 46.02%
  • other

    29 25.66%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

  1. #331
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Son, you have a whole stack of unanswered challenges that you need to get to before you'll ever be in a position to demand things from me.
    How convenient for you. You forfeit the argument then. Have a good one.

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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    How convenient for you. You forfeit the argument then. Have a good one.
    Ah. Then by this standard, you've "forfeited" about 40 times already, and then you do so again now by ignoring my challenge concerning Hartwell.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  3. #333
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I'm not sure what the relevance of taxation is to this. Paying for something with tax payer money makes it public, it doesn't make it yours.
    It makes it part mine. It makes me entitled to use it as I've already paid for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    And I'm not sure what in this situation is supported by tax payer money. The airline companies are private companies, correct? The government (i.e. the will of the people) is mandating these search procedures, and it isn't at taxpayer expense to my knowledge (could be wrong about that, though). It's at the expense of the airline. So we have a private company implementing safety procedures, and if the airline company doesn't like what the government requires, they are free to sue for a violation of their own rights.
    At the expense of the airline? That's not who pays TSA's bill. The TSA is a government organization created by congress and funded likewise. The airlines.....HA! The airline companies are no longer "private". Not in the strictest sense of the word. They are floated by all of our money, which entitles us to the use of the service. Just because we use the service does not mean that our rights evaporate and the government may do as it likes to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    But I don't see any reason to think the passenger has any rights. Please explain.
    This is why you fail. The rights and liberties of the individual are innate and inalienable. They cannot be taken away. The government, of which TSA is a part of, has and is always restricted on what it can and cannot do to the individual. There are always a series of proofs required for aggressive infringement upon the free exercise of one's rights. Always. While there are reasonable actions to take, not all actions are allowed. It doesn't matter if the airlines were private, none of them use private property (not commercially anyway). The airport is not private, the TSA is not private. This is a government agency we're talking about. And the government is always restricted in how it can act against our rights. That's just the base right there.

    I don't see any reason to think that the passengers wouldn't have any rights. They're people, right? Then they have rights. End of story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    What is the "tax payer supported system" you keep referring to? The government? The TSA?

    This is not saying that you have no rights, merely that you have no right to privacy in this situation where the search has been consented to in advance. Do you deny that consent is given when the ticket is purchased?

    Imagine that the government wasn't involved, and private companies did this of their own free will, would there be a violation of any passenger's rights in that case?

    You are correct that our rights still exist when we board a plane, but you are incorrect that a right is being violated as against the passenger. I agree that the airline's rights would be violated, but they seem to be just fine with it. There is really no problem with any of this from a libertarian perspective.
    I don't give my consent to any unreasonable, aggressive, and invasive procedures like the new searches being cooked up by the government for use against its own people. Your last statement makes no sense from a libertarian standpoint. The airlines, first and foremost, have no rights. Only individuals have rights. And it is still government force against the rights of the individuals which is at the heart of the matter here. They can tell the airline company whatever they want. The airlines can agree or disagree. But even if the government demanded that the airlines allow TSA to randomly shoot someone in line to show the others that they're serious and the airlines agree; they can't do it. Not rightfully, not justly. Because the INDIVIDUAL still has rights and the government is LIMITED in how it can act against those rights. Always and forever.

    And that's one of the base tenets of libertarian political philosophy. It's time that you start to understand the implications and repercussions of it.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  4. #334
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It makes it part mine. It makes me entitled to use it as I've already paid for it.
    Correction. It doesn't make it part yours, it makes it public. Big difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    This is why you fail. The rights and liberties of the individual are innate and inalienable. They cannot be taken away.
    And here's why you fail: you can waive rights. People do it all the time, and it is precisely what is happening here. When you buy your ticket, and the fine print says that you may be subject to a body scan, guess what? You just waived any right to privacy you may have otherwise had. Doesn't matter if it's the government or the airline performing the search, you consented to it when you bought the ticket.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    The government, of which TSA is a part of, has and is always restricted on what it can and cannot do to the individual. There are always a series of proofs required for aggressive infringement upon the free exercise of one's rights. Always. While there are reasonable actions to take, not all actions are allowed.
    Yes, but you are fundamentally misunderstanding where the issue is. This is between the government and the airline, not the government and the passenger. It's the airline company that is getting their rights violated. The passenger consented, they have no right to privacy here. The airline has a right not to have their business coercive interfered with, but hey, they consented too. It's all good from a libertarian standpoint. That's why this outrage coming from libertarians is so ridiculously misplaced. It demonstrates an utterly superficial understanding of how rights work.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    It doesn't matter if the airlines were private, none of them use private property (not commercially anyway). The airport is not private, the TSA is not private. This is a government agency we're talking about. And the government is always restricted in how it can act against our rights. That's just the base right there.
    I don't see any reason to think that the passengers wouldn't have any rights. They're people, right? Then they have rights. End of story.
    The government is restricted in how it can act, against the airlines. But when the airlines consented to it and implemented the policy, it became airline policy. Thus is it within their rights to require passengers to follow their rules when flying their planes, end of story.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    I don't give my consent to any unreasonable, aggressive, and invasive procedures like the new searches being cooked up by the government for use against its own people.
    Yes you did! You gave your consent when you bought the airplane ticket!
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 11-22-10 at 12:08 PM.

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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    And he STILL hasn't explained what the court in Hartwell said about these full body scans, nor how the 3rd Circuit sets policy for the entire country. Imagine my surprise . . .
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  6. #336
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    When you buy your ticket, and the fine print says that you may be subject to a body scan, guess what?
    Quote the fine print, verbatim.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  7. #337
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    And, back to silence. Big surprise.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  8. #338
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Correction. It doesn't make it part yours, it makes it public. Big difference.
    The difference is perception. In reality, anything that is "public" belongs to all the People and we are entitled to use it. Be it land or service. It's ours, we're the collective property owners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    And here's why you fail: you can waive rights. People do it all the time, and it is precisely what is happening here. When you buy your ticket, and the fine print says that you may be subject to a body scan, guess what? You just waived any right to privacy you may have otherwise had. Doesn't matter if it's the government or the airline performing the search, you consented to it when you bought the ticket.
    But your failure is the same as before. While I can agree to certain reasonable practices, the fine print cannot abdicate in full my rights. And since we're talking about government agency, there are restrictions on what they can and cannot do. These restrictions exist outside the "I bought a ticket" fable you keep repeating. These restrictions have existed since the construct of the Constitution. It does matter if it's the government or the airline performing the search because THE GOVERNMENT IS RESTRICTED. That is the absolute. I may agree that you can look through my bags or send me through a metal detector. But I do not agree to gross violations of my rights and human dignity because I'm forced to go through the airports to get very long distances on reasonable time scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Yes, but you are fundamentally misunderstanding where the issue is. This is between the government and the airline, not the government and the passenger. It's the airline company that is getting their rights violated. The passenger consented, they have no right to privacy here. The airline has a right not to have their business coercive interfered with, but hey, they consented too. It's all good from a libertarian standpoint. That's why this outrage coming from libertarians is so ridiculously misplaced. It demonstrates an utterly superficial understanding of how rights work.
    I think in your statist defense, you have forgotten how rights work. This is not between the airlines and the government. The issue is the government's actions against the People. That is the dynamic at question. The airlines had little choice in the matter; they don't own the airports. You know, the building in which all this actually takes place. It's not private. Nor is the agency conducting the search. It's all government. Government demands, rightfully or not, and then acts, rightfully or not. It doesn't matter that I buy a plane ticket; what matters is how the government acts against my rights. I may submit through purchasing the tickets to some form of search. But not to unreasonable and aggressive searches; not without proof. The government cannot act against me any way it wants. It doesn't matter if it forced private companies to comply, there is always a restriction.

    According to you, it would be ok for TSA to randomly shoot people in line if they got the airline's permission to shoot people in line. But that's crazy. And no sane person would endorse this line of "logic". The government is always restricted, always. There are no ands, ifs or buts about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    The government is restricted in how it can act, against the airlines. But when the airlines consented to it and implemented the policy, it became airline policy. Thus is it within their rights to require passengers to follow their rules when flying their planes, end of story.
    OMG no. You can't seriously sit there with a straight face and say that. The government IS ALWAYS RESTRICTED IN HOW IT CAN ACT AGAINST THE RIGHTS AND LIBERTIES OF THE INDIVIDUAL. This is basic, this is the foundation of everything that is established in the Republic.

    The real problem here is that that under your system, there is nothing the People can do to influence the system. If it were truly a private concern than the varying airlines would have varying security and people could choose for themselves the level they are comfortable with. Ultimately a market would drive the security measures to some standard set. But that doesn't exist. The government runs security and sets all the rules as they like. There's no consumer choice available and people have to fly. Yes, it's a necessity in today's day and age for certain distances/time scales. Essentially you're arguing the Catch-22 here; and that's not a good thing. In the end, the actual action in question is the forcible use of TSA's agressive and invasive searching techniques against the People. As the TSA is an arm of the government, particularly since it's one of the militant arms of the government, it is restricted in its actions against the individual. Ticket or no. This is the ultimate truth. The "end of story" is that government is always restricted in what it can do against the rights and liberties of the individual.


    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Yes you did! You gave your consent when you bought the airplane ticket!
    No I didn't. I did not abdicate any of the exercise of my rights. Nor did I consent to aggressive, unreasonable, invasive searches against me with no proof what so ever. The government is never fully unrestricted to act against my rights without proof or trial.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #339
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    And, back to silence. Big surprise.
    I fly a couple times per month and as your question suggests - the Conditions of Carriage never note a Backscatter X-Ray device or a pat-down that prods one's genitals.

    Delta:
    Passenger Responsibility Passengers must arrive at the airport sufficiently in advance of a flight departure time (generally, not less than 2 hours) to permit completion of government requirements, security procedures, and departure processing. Departures will not be delayed for passengers who are improperly documented, or have not completed all security processing, or have not met the carrier’s check-in requirements. Delta is not liable to the passenger for loss or expense due to the passenger’s failure to comply with this provision.
    Contract of Carriage

    United's Conditions of Carriage don't make that distinction either:
    http://content.united.com/ual/asset/COC19aug10final.pdf

    At what point does the search become too invasive? I think they have already. These conditions of carriage have not been updated since TSA has moved to nude screenings and the groping of genitalia.

  10. #340
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by topshelf View Post
    I fly a couple times per month and as your question suggests - the Conditions of Carriage never note a Backscatter X-Ray device or a pat-down that prods one's genitals.

    Delta:
    Passenger Responsibility Passengers must arrive at the airport sufficiently in advance of a flight departure time (generally, not less than 2 hours) to permit completion of government requirements, security procedures, and departure processing. Departures will not be delayed for passengers who are improperly documented, or have not completed all security processing, or have not met the carrier’s check-in requirements. Delta is not liable to the passenger for loss or expense due to the passenger’s failure to comply with this provision.
    Contract of Carriage

    United's Conditions of Carriage don't make that distinction either:
    http://content.united.com/ual/asset/COC19aug10final.pdf

    At what point does the search become too invasive? I think they have already. These conditions of carriage have not been updated since TSA has moved to nude screenings and the groping of genitalia.
    Doesn't say anything about "consent," either.

    In fact, the only thing the United document says about "consent" is that luggage will be scanned with or without consent.

    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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