View Poll Results: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

Voters
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  • invasive pat downs

    12 10.62%
  • Non invasive pat downs.

    31 27.43%
  • Subjected to radiation so you and or your children can be virtually stripped searched.

    17 15.04%
  • Real strip searches

    11 9.73%
  • Cavity search.

    53 46.90%
  • walking through a metal detector.

    52 46.02%
  • other

    29 25.66%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

  1. #321
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I'm beginning to have real second thoughts. After watching Fox News show pat-down after pat-down after pat-down, I doubt this procedure will be in place a year from now. I'm not sure what the answer is.

    Maybe we're going to have to accept the fact that in today's world there is a risk to flying....just as there is a risk of driving to the airport. Metal detectors...x-raying baggage....air marshall on every flight...dogs trained to sniff explosives...profiling behavior with well-trained security officers...facial recognitiion software...proof of legal U.S. residency at the checkpoint...perhaps more scrutiny as one actually purchases a ticket...

    If these security measures are then deemed not enough, then I think it is only fair that we begin to profile full-blown....create a profile based on every terrorist attack that's happened in the world to date...and subject those people to 4th Amendment rights violations. And we all know who will be targeted.

    We're all giving up our rights in order to, in essence, protect their rights. There really is something wrong with this picture, yes?
    That's why I didn't comment to the OP in the other thread. I think juggling junk is going too far, and look at who they're doing it to! Then you hear Muslim women might get an exemption? WTF is that but nutso?

    Dogs, sniffer machines, xrays, pat downs sans junk juggling, and profiling.

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  2. #322
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    So I should accept violations of my rights to use a system I've already paid for through my taxes and where my taxes go to "defend" (pretty sure the Airlines aren't flipping TSA's bill) or I can take other means which are for all practical purposes, not viable. That's pretty much it eh?
    Faulty premise. You don't have a right to fly. Thus, it is not a violation of any rights to subject an airline passenger to a screening process so long as the passenger has been informed of that possibility before he purchased the ticket. As a libertarian you should understand that.

  3. #323
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    I'm beginning to have real second thoughts. After watching Fox News show pat-down after pat-down after pat-down, I doubt this procedure will be in place a year from now. I'm not sure what the answer is.

    Maybe we're going to have to accept the fact that in today's world there is a risk to flying....just as there is a risk of driving to the airport. Metal detectors...x-raying baggage....air marshall on every flight...dogs trained to sniff explosives...profiling behavior with well-trained security officers...facial recognitiion software...proof of legal U.S. residency at the checkpoint...perhaps more scrutiny as one actually purchases a ticket...

    If these security measures are then deemed not enough, then I think it is only fair that we begin to profile full-blown....create a profile based on every terrorist attack that's happened in the world to date...and subject those people to 4th Amendment rights violations. And we all know who will be targeted.

    We're all giving up our rights in order to, in essence, protect their rights. There really is something wrong with this picture, yes?
    What's wrong is the loss of reasonability in the system. There is risk to flying, yes. Even with terrorists, it is not as great a risk as driving in general. Driving takes out more than 3,000 people a year in our country. We don't bat an eye. How many people die because of guns? Yet we still have them in our society; we have not banned all guns. People incited to riot, but we let other people talk their minds. Free is necessarily unsafe. Necessarily unsafe. The more and more we move towards "safety", the more and more we will encroach upon that freedom. Free is necessarily unsafe.

    We don't have to throw open the doors and say "have at it". There are reasonable things we can do. I don't think anyone here is saying "no searches". But what we are saying is that these new forms of searches have discarded our humanity and are treating us in a way the government was never meant to treat us as. They are not the king. Even if they define themselves to be in the right, they are not. These aggressive and invasive tactics taken by the government most certainly do violate my right to keep my person, my property, my papers, and my effects from unlawful and unreasonable search and seizure. I will take the freedom, and I will take all the consequences that comes with it. Even the incredibly small increase in probabilities caused by terrorism. Even then, the chance of anything going wrong to the point that people die is very very very very slim. Much better chance dying driving to work than flying and being taken over by terrorists.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  4. #324
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Faulty premise. You don't have a right to fly. Thus, it is not a violation of any rights to subject an airline passenger to a screening process so long as the passenger has been informed of that possibility before he purchased the ticket. As a libertarian you should understand that.
    Not having the "right to fly" (faulty premise as we have the freedom to move) does not mean that the government is unbridled in their actions towards the exercise of my rights. As a libertarian, you should understand that.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #325
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Not having the "right to fly" (faulty premise as we have the freedom to move) does not mean that the government is unbridled in their actions towards the exercise of my rights. As a libertarian, you should understand that.
    We have freedom to move but not a right to move in an airplane that belongs to somebody else. The person who owns the airplane sets the rules, and in this case they have set a rule that requires body scanners.

    You aren't exercising a right when you get on a plane, you are exercising a privilege, and it comes with whatever strings the airline and the government attach to it. If the government forces the airline to implement search procedures, that is between the airline and the government, not the passenger and the government. As a libertarian, you should understand that.

  6. #326
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    We have freedom to move but not a right to move in an airplane that belongs to somebody else. The person who owns the airplane sets the rules, and in this case they have set a rule that requires body scanners.
    But it's all supported by tax payer money. If I didn't pay for it in the first place, it wouldn't be around to ass rape me when I try to use the service.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You aren't exercising a right when you get on a plane, you are exercising a privilege, and it comes with whatever strings the airline and the government attach to it. If the government forces the airline to implement search procedures, that is between the airline and the government, not the passenger and the government. As a libertarian, you should understand that.
    No, I am not exercising a right. Nor does that mean that I have no rights. This is where you fail. This assumption that because I'm using a tax payer supported system that automatically I have no rights and anything the government does against me is ok. It's completely false. Our rights still exist, and there are always limitations to how the government can act against the rights and liberties of an individual. As a libertarian, you should understand that.
    Last edited by Ikari; 11-22-10 at 11:27 AM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  7. #327
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But it's all supported by tax payer money. If I didn't pay for it in the first place, it wouldn't be around to ass rape me when I try to use the service.
    I'm not sure what the relevance of taxation is to this. Paying for something with tax payer money makes it public, it doesn't make it yours. And I'm not sure what in this situation is supported by tax payer money. The airline companies are private companies, correct? The government (i.e. the will of the people) is mandating these search procedures, and it isn't at taxpayer expense to my knowledge (could be wrong about that, though). It's at the expense of the airline. So we have a private company implementing safety procedures, and if the airline company doesn't like what the government requires, they are free to sue for a violation of their own rights. But I don't see any reason to think the passenger has any rights. Please explain.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari
    No, I am not exercising a right. Nor does that mean that I have no rights. This is where you fail. This assumption that because I'm using a tax payer supported system that automatically I have no rights and anything the government does against me is ok. It's completely false. Our rights still exist, and there are always limitations to how the government can act against the rights and liberties of an individual. As a libertarian, you should understand that.
    What is the "tax payer supported system" you keep referring to? The government? The TSA?

    This is not saying that you have no rights, merely that you have no right to privacy in this situation where the search has been consented to in advance. Do you deny that consent is given when the ticket is purchased?

    Imagine that the government wasn't involved, and private companies did this of their own free will, would there be a violation of any passenger's rights in that case?

    You are correct that our rights still exist when we board a plane, but you are incorrect that a right is being violated as against the passenger. I agree that the airline's rights would be violated, but they seem to be just fine with it. There is really no problem with any of this from a libertarian perspective.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 11-22-10 at 11:34 AM.

  8. #328
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    All that proves is that Mo McGowan doesn't know what he's talking about either. It's just a mistaken assumption about what the fourth amendment protects, and there is a large segment of the population that has this misunderstanding.
    Yeah, your five minutes on Google trumps what everyone else in the world knows.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  9. #329
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Yeah, your five minutes on Google trumps what everyone else in the world knows.
    Please explain how body scanners violate the fourth amendment, in detail. While you're at it, explain why the court in Hartwell disagrees with you.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 11-22-10 at 11:38 AM.

  10. #330
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Please explain how body scanners violate the fourth amendment, in detail. While you're at it, explain why the court in Hartwell disagrees with you.
    Son, you have a whole stack of unanswered challenges that you need to get to before you'll ever be in a position to demand things from me. But whenever you can't answer something, you pretend it was never posted.

    You show me where these body scanners are mentioned at all, in any way, in Hartwell in order for them to have "disagreed" with me concerning anything about them, then we'll talk. And then show me where the 3rd Circuit sets policy for the entire nation. Those are both things you will need to do in order to have any point here.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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