View Poll Results: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

Voters
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  • invasive pat downs

    12 10.62%
  • Non invasive pat downs.

    31 27.43%
  • Subjected to radiation so you and or your children can be virtually stripped searched.

    17 15.04%
  • Real strip searches

    11 9.73%
  • Cavity search.

    53 46.90%
  • walking through a metal detector.

    52 46.02%
  • other

    29 25.66%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

  1. #311
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Legally, consent with no recourse isn't consent. If you need to get someplace, for business or personal reasons, and they only way you can get there is by flying, and the airport will prevent you from flying if you don't consent to their searches, legally, you would be giving consent under duress. In court, that doesn't hold up as actual consent.
    Sorry, that's an incorrect statement of the legal standard for duress.

    Black's Law Dictionary (6th ed.) defines duress as "any unlawful threat or coercion used... to induce another to act [or not act] in a manner [they] otherwise would not [or would]". It also defines "coercion" as "force or threat of force." Therefore, in court, the passengers going through the scanners are consenting. We've already cited cases on point, see Hartwell above.

    Economic necessity might be enough to show a contract of adhesion, but not lack of consent for fourth amendment search and seizure purposes.

  2. #312
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Legally, consent with no recourse isn't consent. If you need to get someplace, for business or personal reasons, and they only way you can get there is by flying, and the airport will prevent you from flying if you don't consent to their searches, legally, you would be giving consent under duress. In court, that doesn't hold up as actual consent.
    then explain why you lose your driver's license for a year in most states if you do not consent to a BAC exam if you are suspected of being drunk. or if you do not provide proof of insurance

    reason-you don't have a constitutionally guaranteed right to fly on drive on public roads



  3. #313
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    then explain why you lose your driver's license for a year in most states if you do not consent to a BAC exam if you are suspected of being drunk. or if you do not provide proof of insurance

    reason-you don't have a constitutionally guaranteed right to fly on drive on public roads
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  4. #314
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    Legally, consent with no recourse isn't consent. If you need to get someplace, for business or personal reasons, and they only way you can get there is by flying, and the airport will prevent you from flying if you don't consent to their searches, legally, you would be giving consent under duress. In court, that doesn't hold up as actual consent.
    Wow....just wow.....

    Just to add to what Guy Incognito, and TurtleDude said...

    First, There are always other ways to get to where you need to go. It might not be as fast, but those other ways will still get you there. Other modes of transportation within the US are: private plane, car, truck, pickup, bus, train, motorcycle, moped, bicycle, and the oldest mode of transportation known to man...your feet. And none of them has the security protocols that the airport has. (heck you can even stick out a thumb and get a ride with a stranger if you think that you absolutely need to)

    Second anyone and everyone just "has" to get to where they want to go and thinks that should trump everyone elses problems. Hate to break it to you but that is wrong. John Doe's wants/"needs" are just as important as Jane Doe's wants/"needs". And saving even one life is far more important than your want or "need" to get onto a plane.

    Edit Note: Oh and if you have to go overseas there are private airplanes which do not require you to go through the TSA's checkpoints and there are ships. So either way you're covered going to another country also. (and if a buisness has enough money to need an employee to go to another country then by god they have enough money to spring for a private plane.)
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 11-22-10 at 06:32 AM.
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  5. #315
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    what should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane? Which of the following is okay with you, what is the limit in which you give up your 4th amendment rights?


    Invasive pat downs
    non invasive pat downs.
    Subjected to radiation so you and or your children can be virtually stripped searched.
    Real strip searches.
    Cavity search.
    Walking through a metal detector.
    other
    Profiling.

    .
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  6. #316
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    For a citation that is specifically on point, please see post 302.
    While I do appreciate your posting that link - it's fair to note that this is a 2006 decision based on much less invasive procedures. I don't think that decision answers the question of whether backscatter imaging devices (sometimes called nudeo-scopes) and the groin checks amount to an unreasonable search.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    But I'm right even without citations. Anybody even passingly familiar with the fourth amendment will agree with me. Don't get me wrong, I like educating people who are ignorant of the law, like Harshaw and yourself, but this stuff is so basic that citations aren't necessary.
    Yes, citations are necessary - and here's a link any attorney wishing to test this ruling may find interesting. Former TSA Assistant Administrator Mo McGowan admitting that these new procedures are in fact a violation of the 4th Amendment.


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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by topshelf View Post
    Yes, citations are necessary - and here's a link any attorney wishing to test this ruling may find interesting. Former TSA Assistant Administrator Mo McGowan admitting that these new procedures are in fact a violation of the 4th Amendment.
    All that proves is that Mo McGowan doesn't know what he's talking about either. It's just a mistaken assumption about what the fourth amendment protects, and there is a large segment of the population that has this misunderstanding. But you can't play it fast and loose with definitions like that in the law. Not every invasion of privacy is a fourth amendment violation.

  8. #318
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    then explain why you lose your driver's license for a year in most states if you do not consent to a BAC exam if you are suspected of being drunk.
    Horrible laws and practices by an ever expanding government.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  9. #319
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Wow....just wow.....

    Just to add to what Guy Incognito, and TurtleDude said...

    First, There are always other ways to get to where you need to go. It might not be as fast, but those other ways will still get you there. Other modes of transportation within the US are: private plane, car, truck, pickup, bus, train, motorcycle, moped, bicycle, and the oldest mode of transportation known to man...your feet. And none of them has the security protocols that the airport has. (heck you can even stick out a thumb and get a ride with a stranger if you think that you absolutely need to)

    Second anyone and everyone just "has" to get to where they want to go and thinks that should trump everyone elses problems. Hate to break it to you but that is wrong. John Doe's wants/"needs" are just as important as Jane Doe's wants/"needs". And saving even one life is far more important than your want or "need" to get onto a plane.

    Edit Note: Oh and if you have to go overseas there are private airplanes which do not require you to go through the TSA's checkpoints and there are ships. So either way you're covered going to another country also. (and if a buisness has enough money to need an employee to go to another country then by god they have enough money to spring for a private plane.)
    So I should accept violations of my rights to use a system I've already paid for through my taxes and where my taxes go to "defend" (pretty sure the Airlines aren't flipping TSA's bill) or I can take other means which are for all practical purposes, not viable. That's pretty much it eh?

    You people willing to give up freedom for "safety" will not find yourselves in a good spot. We're not saving "even just one life" (which is about as horrible an argument as one can make, we're certainly ok with many things in which more than one person dies because of the practice), all we're doing is expanding government force against the rights of the people while spending unnecessarily large amounts of money in the process. That's what you'll accomplish. Thanks for wasting my money.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  10. #320
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    I'm beginning to have real second thoughts. After watching Fox News show pat-down after pat-down after pat-down, I doubt this procedure will be in place a year from now. I'm not sure what the answer is.

    Maybe we're going to have to accept the fact that in today's world there is a risk to flying....just as there is a risk of driving to the airport. Metal detectors...x-raying baggage....air marshall on every flight...dogs trained to sniff explosives...profiling behavior with well-trained security officers...facial recognitiion software...proof of legal U.S. residency at the checkpoint...perhaps more scrutiny as one actually purchases a ticket...

    If these security measures are then deemed not enough, then I think it is only fair that we begin to profile full-blown....create a profile based on every terrorist attack that's happened in the world to date...and subject those people to 4th Amendment rights violations. And we all know who will be targeted.

    We're all giving up our rights in order to, in essence, protect their rights. There really is something wrong with this picture, yes?
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

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