View Poll Results: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

Voters
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  • invasive pat downs

    12 10.62%
  • Non invasive pat downs.

    31 27.43%
  • Subjected to radiation so you and or your children can be virtually stripped searched.

    17 15.04%
  • Real strip searches

    11 9.73%
  • Cavity search.

    53 46.90%
  • walking through a metal detector.

    52 46.02%
  • other

    29 25.66%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

  1. #231
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You're misunderstanding the issue. Nobody is forcing you to buy a plane ticket. It's not like the government is forcing anybody to step through these x-ray machines, the passengers are doing it of their own free will.

    The Constitutional issue here is between the government and the airline company, not between the government and the passenger. So it isn't a violation of civil liberties.
    No one is forcing you to own a car. Therefore the government should be allowed to install a GPS tracker on your car and keep track of your every move. It's just an issue between the government and Toyota, not a violation of your civil liberties. Right?
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    That's a choice that's not really a choice at all. If we're going to assume that you consent to waiving your civil liberties whenever you engage in common activities like flying, then we don't really have any civil liberties.
    Weather it is a common activity or not doesn't mean anything. Weather you give your consent or not is what matters. You give that consent by proceeding into an area that you know requires that you go through certain examinations. You do not give consent if you do not proceed into an area that you know requires that you go through certain examinations. You choose to go through those check points. No one else chooses for you or forces you to go.

    The same applies for whenever you go to the grocery store. You go there and you know that you will be seen by other people. By going to that grocery store you are consenting to be seen. You are waiving away your privacy rights to the extent that you expect to when going to a grocery store. When you go to the airport and go through the security checkpoint you know that you will be screened, even possibly patted down or even having to go through a body scanner. Because you know this you waive your rights away to the extent that you expect to when you proceed through that security checkpoint. And again, you do not give your consent when you do not proceed to go to that area.
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  3. #233
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No one is forcing you to own a car. Therefore the government should be allowed to install a GPS tracker on your car and keep track of your every move. It's just an issue between the government and Toyota, not a violation of your civil liberties. Right?
    You do know that there is a big difference between owning a car and using the airport right? You OWN the car. You do not OWN the airport.
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  4. #234
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Weather it is a common activity or not doesn't mean anything. Weather you give your consent or not is what matters. You give that consent by proceeding into an area that you know requires that you go through certain examinations. You do not give consent if you do not proceed into an area that you know requires that you go through certain examinations. You choose to go through those check points. No one else chooses for you or forces you to go.
    So then you're OK with the government installing a GPS on your car and tracking your every move? By driving on public roads, you give your consent to be tracked. You can always just walk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang
    The same applies for whenever you go to the grocery store. You go there and you know that you will be seen by other people. By going to that grocery store you are consenting to be seen. You are waiving away your privacy rights to the extent that you expect to when going to a grocery store. When you go to the airport and go through the security checkpoint you know that you will be screened, even possibly patted down or even having to go through a body scanner. Because you know this you waive your rights away to the extent that you expect to when you proceed through that security checkpoint. And again, you do not give your consent when you do not proceed to go to that area.
    This is a circular argument. You are essentially saying that the government has the right to employ more draconian security procedures at the airport than elsewhere because people expect it. But the only reason that people expect it is because the government employs more draconian security procedures at the airport than elsewhere.
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    You do know that there is a big difference between owning a car and using the airport right? You OWN the car. You do not OWN the airport.
    The government owns the infrastructure (the roads or the airport) in both cases. The actual vehicle (a car or a plane) is privately-owned in both cases. So what's the difference? Why is it assumed that I waive my civil liberties for one and not the other?
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-20-10 at 07:23 PM.
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  6. #236
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    The government owns the infrastructure (the roads or the airport) in both cases. The actual vehicle (a car or a plane) is privately-owned in both cases. So what's the difference? Why is it assumed that I waive my civil liberties for one and not the other?
    The government could not install a GPS unit on your car because it is your private property. But they could install camera's every few miles along the road if they wanted. As for the plane I don't know if the government insists on GPS trackers or not. If they did it would be reasonable since there are no roads in the sky and it is awefully hard to look at the tail end, above or below of a 747 in mid-flight while going through clouds from the cockpit.

    As for why it is assumed that you waive your rights at an airport security checkpoint it is as I have already said. When you go somewhere public you will always be giving your consent to what ever is expected of the area that you are going to. If you don't like what is expected of the area that you are headed to or think about heading to you can deny your consent by not going there. The ONLY place were you have complete privacy is in your own home. Unless of course the government gets a warrant to spy on you or search your house or if you invite people over to your house.

    Edit note: added last sentence.
    Last edited by Kal'Stang; 11-20-10 at 07:47 PM.
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  7. #237
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by topshelf View Post
    All the pro-TSA folk, including Pistole himself, seem to be arguing that you surrender your 4th Amendment right against search and seizure when you buy a ticket on an airplane. So which is it - are we surrendering our constitutional rights or not?

    If we are - then why not use the method that's going to be most effective ... since people's rights are going to be violated no matter what you do.
    I believe that if you want to fly on an airplane, it is reasonable that you be required to submit to security screening. If you don't want to submit to the security screening, don't fly on airplanes. The air travel industry has a right to refuse service to anyone.

    No shirt, no shoes, no security screening, no service.

  8. #238
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    So basically you are advocating that we base our entire national security apparatus on what the LAST terrorist did, assuming that the next one will have absolutely zero creativity or flexibility in altering his plans. This is absurd. To the extent that we need to worry about terrorism, we should be putting our resources in the places where future attacks are most likely to occur, not where the last guy found a weakness.
    If we've identified a place where a vulnerability exists (i.e., the ability of a terrorist to mix up an explosive chemical cocktail in an airplane lavatory), it would be ridiculously stupid not to protect that vulnerability. We can't always plan for the unknown, but we would be negligent not to plan for the known.

    9/11 won't be repeated as has been explained to you before.
    This argument? It's a strawman, because I've never argued that 9.11 WOULD BE repeated. I suggested that security screenings for possible explosive devices on the plane are a necessary fact of life at this point in time. I've given you plenty of evidence of why this is the case. Hope that helps you.

    As far as "explaining," continued repetition will not make your statements more evidence-based or factual.

    Any terrorist attacks will be confined to the people aboard the plane. And even if a plane gets blown out of the sky (which hasn't happened since Lockerbie if I'm not mistaken...and has NEVER happened in the United States) it's one plane out of hundreds of millions.
    1) It's a huge assumption that such attacks would be limited to single planes when even 9/11 included multiple targets. Making such assumptions is stupid given what we now know about the M.O. of these organizations.

    2) If a simple screening can eliminate the possibility of terrorists to disrupt the air travel industryh for days/weeks/months, it is probably warranted, given the costs of an attack to our entire country.

    If you're going to be "heavily impacted" by that, then I suggest you get over your irrational fear of things that are miniscule dangers.
    Given that there have been multiple attempts in recent years, these fears aren't irrational. Nice try, but fail. This is also a very poor attempt at an ad hominem. It isn't my fear of miniscule dangers, but a response to the massive financial and personal impacts of such an attack. Another successful series of attacks would be tremendously disruptive to this nation's economy.

    Our government would be a lot more effective and save a lot more lives if it devoted more money to, say, improving the safety of automobiles or researching heart disease.
    Those issues can and are being addressed by the free market, nor is an automobile accident going to disrupt dozens of industries and millions of people. Whereas, a single targeted airline attack could cause billions of damages. So, scale is important.
    But thanks to irrational people like you, we have nudie booths to fight airport terrorists instead.
    Your emotional personal attack at this point is a concession that you cannot argue your case using logic and facts.

    And this right here is the problem. You think it's a matter of people being embarrassed of being naked. While I'm sure there is some of that and it's perfectly understandable, the real issue here is the infringement on civil liberties. The particular orifice isn't particularly relevant; I don't want government agencies feeling inside my mouth and nostrils anymore than I want them feeling my groin. I don't want them looking at all the papers in my briefcase anymore than I want them looking under my clothes.
    Then let me help you...don't fly. Take the train or drive a car. The convenience and speed of flying is a choice, not a right or entitlement.

    Actually, only the first one is an opinion. 2-4 are all facts. It doesn't improve safety, if it did it would shift the risk from the plane to the security line, and terrorist attacks are vanishingly rare.
    They're unsubstantiated and skewed...which puts them into the realm of opinion. I think you actually believe that your unsupported opinions are in fact, FACTS. They aren't.

    I shouldn't have to give up MY civil liberties just because YOU are irrational and want to feel secure knowing that the TSA reduced your odds of dying in a plane bombing from 0.0000002% to 0.0000001%.
    You aren't required to. Don't want to submit to the security screening? Don't fly. It's a choice. You are NOT entitled to air travel.

    I'll tell you what. Why don't we have federal agents attach a GPS to your car. No one's forcing you to drive. And if you don't, the more we'll all save on GPS trackers.
    Airplanes aren't your personal property. They belong to private companies, who have a right to request all sorts of things from customers who purchase a ticket to fly on their planes. It's your choice to purchase that ticket, knowing that you will be required to submit to a security screening.

    Your argument is a bit like a customer who walks into a restaurant, without shirt or shoes, and demands to be waited on. Private businesses have a right to refuse service to you if you refuse to meet their basic requirements for obtaining the service.

    If you don't want to submit to a security screening to fly on Delta, for instance, then consider utilizing the free market to solve your dilemma. Consider pooling your resources with other folks booking a private jet where you won't be subjected to these types of hassles. http://www.netjets.com/default.asp?campaign=GooglePaid
    Last edited by Catz Part Deux; 11-20-10 at 08:57 PM.

  9. #239
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux View Post
    Those issues can and are being addressed by the free market, nor is an automobile accident going to disrupt dozens of industries and millions of people. Whereas, a single targeted airline attack could cause billions of damages. So, scale is important.
    It certainly is. Automobile accidents result in FAR more deaths, many more travel hours wasted, and a much greater economic loss to businesses than does airplane terrorism. Not to mention that the solutions to THAT problem don't involve federal agents touching people's groins.

    Quote Originally Posted by Catz Part Deux
    Airplanes aren't your personal property. They belong to private companies, who have a right to request all sorts of things from customers who purchase a ticket to fly on their planes. It's your choice to purchase that ticket, knowing that you will be required to submit to a security screening.

    Your argument is a bit like a customer who walks into a restaurant, without shirt or shoes, and demands to be waited on. Private businesses have a right to refuse service to you if you refuse to meet their basic requirements for obtaining the service.
    Yeah, see, here's the thing. It's not the airlines that are doing this...it's the GOVERNMENT. A better analogy would be if the government mandated that McDonald's had to install metal detectors at all of their restaurants nationwide, and then you had the audacity to tell me that no one forces me to eat there, and made the dishonest claim that it was THEIR decision to require metal detectors rather than the government's.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-20-10 at 08:59 PM.
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  10. #240
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    It certainly is. And automobile accidents result in many more deaths, many more travel hours wasted, and a much greater loss to businesses than does airplane terrorism.
    Please feel free to prove that automobile accidents cause as much disruption to the U.S. economy as 9.11 did. Otherwise, your claim here is completely empty.

    Yeah, see, here's the thing. It's not the airlines that are doing this...it's the GOVERNMENT. A better analogy would be if the government mandated that McDonald's had to install metal detectors at all of their restaurants nationwide, and then you had the audacity to tell me that no one forces me to eat there, and made the dishonest claim that it was THEIR decision to require metal detectors rather than the government's.
    The airports, by and large, are publicly owned property, and the air travel infrastructure is both nationwide and tremendously important to the U.S. economy. The U.S. government is the natural agent to serve in this role.

    And, let me spell it out for you...if the U.S. government installed metal detectors in McDonald's nationwide, and you didn't want to go through those metal detectors, you could--just as I've suggested--make an alternate dining selection. YOu don't have a constitutionally guaranteed right to eat at McDonald's. Nor do you have a constitutionally guaranteed right to fly on airplanes. Thus, participating in either of those activities is 100% voluntary, which equals zero rights being violated.

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