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What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?


  • Total voters
    59
I'm content with the status quo. No need for slippery slope fallacies here. IF new measures are needed, then that can be discussed if/when that occurs.

So basically you are advocating that we base our entire national security apparatus on what the LAST terrorist did, assuming that the next one will have absolutely zero creativity or flexibility in altering his plans. This is absurd. To the extent that we need to worry about terrorism, we should be putting our resources in the places where future attacks are most likely to occur, not where the last guy found a weakness.

Catz Part Deux said:
It's not just about being caught on that single plane. I was heavily impacted by 9/11, and I didn't die. We all were. So, your argument is fallacious. You're conspicuously attempting to narrow the argument to one which is more easily defended. Still a fail.

9/11 won't be repeated as has been explained to you before. Any terrorist attacks will be confined to the people aboard the plane. And even if a plane gets blown out of the sky (which hasn't happened since Lockerbie if I'm not mistaken...and has NEVER happened in the United States) it's one plane out of hundreds of millions. If you're going to be "heavily impacted" by that, then I suggest you get over your irrational fear of things that are miniscule dangers. Our government would be a lot more effective and save a lot more lives if it devoted more money to, say, improving the safety of automobiles or researching heart disease. But thanks to irrational people like you, we have nudie booths to fight airport terrorists instead. :roll:

Catz Part Deux said:
Much ado about nothing. Don't ever have a mammogram, you'll die of embarrassment.

And this right here is the problem. You think it's a matter of people being embarrassed of being naked. While I'm sure there is some of that and it's perfectly understandable, the real issue here is the infringement on civil liberties. The particular orifice isn't particularly relevant; I don't want government agencies feeling inside my mouth and nostrils anymore than I want them feeling my groin. I don't want them looking at all the papers in my briefcase anymore than I want them looking under my clothes.

Catz Part Deux said:
These are all opinions, not facts. Do you know the difference?

Actually, only the first one is an opinion. 2-4 are all facts. It doesn't improve safety, if it did it would shift the risk from the plane to the security line, and terrorist attacks are vanishingly rare.

I shouldn't have to give up MY civil liberties just because YOU are irrational and want to feel secure knowing that the TSA reduced your odds of dying in a plane bombing from 0.0000002% to 0.0000001%.

Catz Part Deux said:
Then don't fly. The fewer of you people who fly, the fewer TSA agents we need, and the more we'll all save.

I'll tell you what. Why don't we have federal agents attach a GPS to your car. No one's forcing you to drive. And if you don't, the more we'll all save on GPS trackers. :roll:
 
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All the pro-TSA folk, including Pistole himself, seem to be arguing that you surrender your 4th Amendment right against search and seizure when you buy a ticket on an airplane. So which is it - are we surrendering our constitutional rights or not?

If we are - then why not use the method that's going to be most effective ... since people's rights are going to be violated no matter what you do.

I wouldn't say all. I've tried to be very careful and make the distinction that you give your consent when you try to go through the security checkpoint to get onto the plane. Because any time before that you can decide to just not go.
 
I wouldn't say all. I've tried to be very careful and make the distinction that you give your consent when you try to go through the security checkpoint to get onto the plane. Because any time before that you can decide to just not go.

That's a choice that's not really a choice at all. If we're going to assume that you consent to waiving your civil liberties whenever you engage in common activities like flying, then we don't really have any civil liberties.
 
That's a choice that's not really a choice at all. If we're going to assume that you consent to waiving your civil liberties whenever you engage in common activities like flying, then we don't really have any civil liberties.

You're misunderstanding the issue. Nobody is forcing you to buy a plane ticket. It's not like the government is forcing anybody to step through these x-ray machines, the passengers are doing it of their own free will.

The Constitutional issue here is between the government and the airline company, not between the government and the passenger. So it isn't a violation of civil liberties.
 
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You're misunderstanding the issue. Nobody is forcing you to buy a plane ticket. It's not like the government is forcing anybody to step through these x-ray machines, the passengers are doing it of their own free will.

The Constitutional issue here is between the government and the airline company, not between the government and the passenger. So it isn't a violation of civil liberties.

There are business travelers that travel every day that have no choice but to submit to this gross invasion of their privacy - simply because they can't afford to stop traveling. We don't have high speed rail so airtravel is really the only option.

The Constitutional issue here is exactly between government and passengers because every two years, passengers are the ones who decide who gets to keep their jobs in government.
 
You're misunderstanding the issue. Nobody is forcing you to buy a plane ticket. It's not like the government is forcing anybody to step through these x-ray machines, the passengers are doing it of their own free will.

The Constitutional issue here is between the government and the airline company, not between the government and the passenger. So it isn't a violation of civil liberties.

No one is forcing you to own a car. Therefore the government should be allowed to install a GPS tracker on your car and keep track of your every move. It's just an issue between the government and Toyota, not a violation of your civil liberties. Right?
 
That's a choice that's not really a choice at all. If we're going to assume that you consent to waiving your civil liberties whenever you engage in common activities like flying, then we don't really have any civil liberties.

Weather it is a common activity or not doesn't mean anything. Weather you give your consent or not is what matters. You give that consent by proceeding into an area that you know requires that you go through certain examinations. You do not give consent if you do not proceed into an area that you know requires that you go through certain examinations. You choose to go through those check points. No one else chooses for you or forces you to go.

The same applies for whenever you go to the grocery store. You go there and you know that you will be seen by other people. By going to that grocery store you are consenting to be seen. You are waiving away your privacy rights to the extent that you expect to when going to a grocery store. When you go to the airport and go through the security checkpoint you know that you will be screened, even possibly patted down or even having to go through a body scanner. Because you know this you waive your rights away to the extent that you expect to when you proceed through that security checkpoint. And again, you do not give your consent when you do not proceed to go to that area.
 
No one is forcing you to own a car. Therefore the government should be allowed to install a GPS tracker on your car and keep track of your every move. It's just an issue between the government and Toyota, not a violation of your civil liberties. Right?

You do know that there is a big difference between owning a car and using the airport right? You OWN the car. You do not OWN the airport.
 
Weather it is a common activity or not doesn't mean anything. Weather you give your consent or not is what matters. You give that consent by proceeding into an area that you know requires that you go through certain examinations. You do not give consent if you do not proceed into an area that you know requires that you go through certain examinations. You choose to go through those check points. No one else chooses for you or forces you to go.

So then you're OK with the government installing a GPS on your car and tracking your every move? By driving on public roads, you give your consent to be tracked. You can always just walk.

Kal'Stang said:
The same applies for whenever you go to the grocery store. You go there and you know that you will be seen by other people. By going to that grocery store you are consenting to be seen. You are waiving away your privacy rights to the extent that you expect to when going to a grocery store. When you go to the airport and go through the security checkpoint you know that you will be screened, even possibly patted down or even having to go through a body scanner. Because you know this you waive your rights away to the extent that you expect to when you proceed through that security checkpoint. And again, you do not give your consent when you do not proceed to go to that area.

This is a circular argument. You are essentially saying that the government has the right to employ more draconian security procedures at the airport than elsewhere because people expect it. But the only reason that people expect it is because the government employs more draconian security procedures at the airport than elsewhere.
 
You do know that there is a big difference between owning a car and using the airport right? You OWN the car. You do not OWN the airport.

The government owns the infrastructure (the roads or the airport) in both cases. The actual vehicle (a car or a plane) is privately-owned in both cases. So what's the difference? Why is it assumed that I waive my civil liberties for one and not the other?
 
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The government owns the infrastructure (the roads or the airport) in both cases. The actual vehicle (a car or a plane) is privately-owned in both cases. So what's the difference? Why is it assumed that I waive my civil liberties for one and not the other?

The government could not install a GPS unit on your car because it is your private property. But they could install camera's every few miles along the road if they wanted. As for the plane I don't know if the government insists on GPS trackers or not. If they did it would be reasonable since there are no roads in the sky and it is awefully hard to look at the tail end, above or below of a 747 in mid-flight while going through clouds from the cockpit.

As for why it is assumed that you waive your rights at an airport security checkpoint it is as I have already said. When you go somewhere public you will always be giving your consent to what ever is expected of the area that you are going to. If you don't like what is expected of the area that you are headed to or think about heading to you can deny your consent by not going there. The ONLY place were you have complete privacy is in your own home. Unless of course the government gets a warrant to spy on you or search your house or if you invite people over to your house.

Edit note: added last sentence.
 
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All the pro-TSA folk, including Pistole himself, seem to be arguing that you surrender your 4th Amendment right against search and seizure when you buy a ticket on an airplane. So which is it - are we surrendering our constitutional rights or not?

If we are - then why not use the method that's going to be most effective ... since people's rights are going to be violated no matter what you do.

I believe that if you want to fly on an airplane, it is reasonable that you be required to submit to security screening. If you don't want to submit to the security screening, don't fly on airplanes. The air travel industry has a right to refuse service to anyone.

No shirt, no shoes, no security screening, no service.
 
So basically you are advocating that we base our entire national security apparatus on what the LAST terrorist did, assuming that the next one will have absolutely zero creativity or flexibility in altering his plans. This is absurd. To the extent that we need to worry about terrorism, we should be putting our resources in the places where future attacks are most likely to occur, not where the last guy found a weakness.

If we've identified a place where a vulnerability exists (i.e., the ability of a terrorist to mix up an explosive chemical cocktail in an airplane lavatory), it would be ridiculously stupid not to protect that vulnerability. We can't always plan for the unknown, but we would be negligent not to plan for the known.

9/11 won't be repeated as has been explained to you before.

This argument? It's a strawman, because I've never argued that 9.11 WOULD BE repeated. I suggested that security screenings for possible explosive devices on the plane are a necessary fact of life at this point in time. I've given you plenty of evidence of why this is the case. Hope that helps you.

As far as "explaining," continued repetition will not make your statements more evidence-based or factual.

Any terrorist attacks will be confined to the people aboard the plane. And even if a plane gets blown out of the sky (which hasn't happened since Lockerbie if I'm not mistaken...and has NEVER happened in the United States) it's one plane out of hundreds of millions.

1) It's a huge assumption that such attacks would be limited to single planes when even 9/11 included multiple targets. Making such assumptions is stupid given what we now know about the M.O. of these organizations.

2) If a simple screening can eliminate the possibility of terrorists to disrupt the air travel industryh for days/weeks/months, it is probably warranted, given the costs of an attack to our entire country.

If you're going to be "heavily impacted" by that, then I suggest you get over your irrational fear of things that are miniscule dangers.

Given that there have been multiple attempts in recent years, these fears aren't irrational. Nice try, but fail. This is also a very poor attempt at an ad hominem. It isn't my fear of miniscule dangers, but a response to the massive financial and personal impacts of such an attack. Another successful series of attacks would be tremendously disruptive to this nation's economy.

Our government would be a lot more effective and save a lot more lives if it devoted more money to, say, improving the safety of automobiles or researching heart disease.

Those issues can and are being addressed by the free market, nor is an automobile accident going to disrupt dozens of industries and millions of people. Whereas, a single targeted airline attack could cause billions of damages. So, scale is important.
But thanks to irrational people like you, we have nudie booths to fight airport terrorists instead. :roll:

Your emotional personal attack at this point is a concession that you cannot argue your case using logic and facts.

And this right here is the problem. You think it's a matter of people being embarrassed of being naked. While I'm sure there is some of that and it's perfectly understandable, the real issue here is the infringement on civil liberties. The particular orifice isn't particularly relevant; I don't want government agencies feeling inside my mouth and nostrils anymore than I want them feeling my groin. I don't want them looking at all the papers in my briefcase anymore than I want them looking under my clothes.

Then let me help you...don't fly. Take the train or drive a car. The convenience and speed of flying is a choice, not a right or entitlement.

Actually, only the first one is an opinion. 2-4 are all facts. It doesn't improve safety, if it did it would shift the risk from the plane to the security line, and terrorist attacks are vanishingly rare.

They're unsubstantiated and skewed...which puts them into the realm of opinion. I think you actually believe that your unsupported opinions are in fact, FACTS. They aren't.

I shouldn't have to give up MY civil liberties just because YOU are irrational and want to feel secure knowing that the TSA reduced your odds of dying in a plane bombing from 0.0000002% to 0.0000001%.

You aren't required to. Don't want to submit to the security screening? Don't fly. It's a choice. You are NOT entitled to air travel.

I'll tell you what. Why don't we have federal agents attach a GPS to your car. No one's forcing you to drive. And if you don't, the more we'll all save on GPS trackers. :roll:

Airplanes aren't your personal property. They belong to private companies, who have a right to request all sorts of things from customers who purchase a ticket to fly on their planes. It's your choice to purchase that ticket, knowing that you will be required to submit to a security screening.

Your argument is a bit like a customer who walks into a restaurant, without shirt or shoes, and demands to be waited on. Private businesses have a right to refuse service to you if you refuse to meet their basic requirements for obtaining the service.

If you don't want to submit to a security screening to fly on Delta, for instance, then consider utilizing the free market to solve your dilemma. Consider pooling your resources with other folks booking a private jet where you won't be subjected to these types of hassles. http://www.netjets.com/default.asp?campaign=GooglePaid
 
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Those issues can and are being addressed by the free market, nor is an automobile accident going to disrupt dozens of industries and millions of people. Whereas, a single targeted airline attack could cause billions of damages. So, scale is important.

It certainly is. Automobile accidents result in FAR more deaths, many more travel hours wasted, and a much greater economic loss to businesses than does airplane terrorism. Not to mention that the solutions to THAT problem don't involve federal agents touching people's groins.

Catz Part Deux said:
Airplanes aren't your personal property. They belong to private companies, who have a right to request all sorts of things from customers who purchase a ticket to fly on their planes. It's your choice to purchase that ticket, knowing that you will be required to submit to a security screening.

Your argument is a bit like a customer who walks into a restaurant, without shirt or shoes, and demands to be waited on. Private businesses have a right to refuse service to you if you refuse to meet their basic requirements for obtaining the service.

Yeah, see, here's the thing. It's not the airlines that are doing this...it's the GOVERNMENT. A better analogy would be if the government mandated that McDonald's had to install metal detectors at all of their restaurants nationwide, and then you had the audacity to tell me that no one forces me to eat there, and made the dishonest claim that it was THEIR decision to require metal detectors rather than the government's. :roll:
 
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It certainly is. And automobile accidents result in many more deaths, many more travel hours wasted, and a much greater loss to businesses than does airplane terrorism.

Please feel free to prove that automobile accidents cause as much disruption to the U.S. economy as 9.11 did. Otherwise, your claim here is completely empty.

Yeah, see, here's the thing. It's not the airlines that are doing this...it's the GOVERNMENT. A better analogy would be if the government mandated that McDonald's had to install metal detectors at all of their restaurants nationwide, and then you had the audacity to tell me that no one forces me to eat there, and made the dishonest claim that it was THEIR decision to require metal detectors rather than the government's. :roll:

The airports, by and large, are publicly owned property, and the air travel infrastructure is both nationwide and tremendously important to the U.S. economy. The U.S. government is the natural agent to serve in this role.

And, let me spell it out for you...if the U.S. government installed metal detectors in McDonald's nationwide, and you didn't want to go through those metal detectors, you could--just as I've suggested--make an alternate dining selection. YOu don't have a constitutionally guaranteed right to eat at McDonald's. Nor do you have a constitutionally guaranteed right to fly on airplanes. Thus, participating in either of those activities is 100% voluntary, which equals zero rights being violated.
 
Yeah, see, here's the thing. It's not the airlines that are doing this...it's the GOVERNMENT. A better analogy would be if the government mandated that McDonald's had to install metal detectors at all of their restaurants nationwide, and then you had the audacity to tell me that no one forces me to eat there, and made the dishonest claim that it was THEIR decision to require metal detectors rather than the government's. :roll:

One of the governments responsibilites is to secure our borders. Those borders also include state borders. So any airport that has planes that fly outside of it's home states borders is subject to federal mandates. You can go to a small private airport that doesn't deal with mass transportation and doesn't fly outside the states borders and you will not be subjected to the same securities that the TSA requires at bigger airports that do go outside of its home states borders. That is why the government is allowed to, and is involved in airport security.

So between the governments responsibilites to secure our borders and you giving your consent by trying to get past their security checkpoints, and flying not being a right you have no legal ground to stand on. Sorry.
 
There are business travelers that travel every day that have no choice but to submit to this gross invasion of their privacy - simply because they can't afford to stop traveling. We don't have high speed rail so airtravel is really the only option.

What's your point? They are still consenting.
 
Look, apart from the abstract philosophical argument that we are all just playthings of fate and hence "consent" cannot be given because there is no free will (and I think that's giving a little too much credit to the other side's argument), there is really no reasonable way to say that passengers getting on an airplane aren't consenting to being searched for security purposes, if they know about that security in advance.

You can't confuse necessity with coercion. Just because somebody's job depends on a flight doesn't mean they are being forced into flying. The government isn't making them fly, their circumstances based on their past and present choices are.
 
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Please feel free to prove that automobile accidents cause as much disruption to the U.S. economy as 9.11 did. Otherwise, your claim here is completely empty.

In 2000, automobile accidents cost about $230 billion in the US, a year that was fairly normal.
CDC - Motor Vehicle Safety

The costs of 9/11 are a bit harder to calculate since it depends on what you include. A narrow reading of the costs (e.g. physical assets, people killed/injured, cleanup costs) would be about $40 billion. A more inclusive interpretation of economic costs (including lost business and reduced travel) would be about $234 billion.
http://www.policyarchive.org/handle/10207/bitstreams/3981.pdf

In other words, even under the most favorable set of assumptions, the economic cost of 9/11 was about the same as the economic cost of A SINGLE YEAR of traffic accidents. And 9/11 was a rare event, whereas we have those traffic accidents every year.

If we're also going to look at the body count: about 3,000 people died on 9/11. About 40,000 people die in traffic accidents in the United States EVERY YEAR.

Catz Part Deux said:
And, let me spell it out for you...if the U.S. government installed metal detectors in McDonald's nationwide, and you didn't want to go through those metal detectors, you could--just as I've suggested--make an alternate dining selection. YOu don't have a constitutionally guaranteed right to eat at McDonald's. Nor do you have a constitutionally guaranteed right to fly on airplanes. Thus, participating in either of those activities is 100% voluntary, which equals zero rights being violated.

Virtually everything people do is 100% voluntary. Fail.
 
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One of the governments responsibilites is to secure our borders. Those borders also include state borders. So any airport that has planes that fly outside of it's home states borders is subject to federal mandates. You can go to a small private airport that doesn't deal with mass transportation and doesn't fly outside the states borders and you will not be subjected to the same securities that the TSA requires at bigger airports that do go outside of its home states borders. That is why the government is allowed to, and is involved in airport security.

The government does not have the right to perform unreasonable searches and seizures just because something crosses state lines. Just like they have no right to ban certain churches that happened to be engaged in interstate commerce. The interstate commerce clause does not invalidate the Bill of Rights.
 
You can't confuse necessity with coercion. Just because somebody's job depends on a flight doesn't mean they are being forced into flying. The government isn't making them fly, their circumstances based on their past and present choices are.

Does the government have the right to read your email, if they're providing the power that keeps the lights on at your internet service provider? No one is forcing you to use the internet or to have electricity, therefore your consent to this invasion of privacy is presumed. Right?
 
I flew 61 segments this year, and I'm content with our current level of security. I tend to believe that the biggest whiners are the people who don't fly that often and have difficulties mastering the rituals of passing through security (shoe removal, bottling liquids and gels, etc.).

I haven't been flying at all lately (which I consider to be a blessing), yet I believe my boss has plans to send me to Spain pretty soon. A Spanish Army contract has come our way for night vision mods on a fleet of Bell AB-212 aircraft.

I'll take your word for it about the security not being too invasive. I'll just roll with the flow. No radiation for me though. I'd prefer to be felt up.
 
In 2000, automobile accidents cost about $230 billion in the US, a year that was fairly normal.
CDC - Motor Vehicle Safety

The costs of 9/11 are a bit harder to calculate since it depends on what you include. A narrow reading of the costs (e.g. physical assets, people killed/injured, cleanup costs) would be about $40 billion. A more inclusive interpretation of economic costs (including lost business and reduced travel) would be about $234 billion.
http://www.policyarchive.org/handle/10207/bitstreams/3981.pdf

In other words, even under the most favorable set of assumptions, the economic cost of 9/11 was about the same as the economic cost of A SINGLE YEAR of traffic accidents. And 9/11 was a rare event, whereas we have those traffic accidents every year.

If we're also going to look at the body count: about 3,000 people died on 9/11. About 40,000 people die in traffic accidents in the United States EVERY YEAR.

Good points. I guess this is why there are federal and state requirements that regulate who can drive, how they can drive, and whether they are required to use safety measures like seat belts. Do you consider those requirements to be an infringement on your constitutional rights?

Virtually everything people do is 100% voluntary. Fail.

It's not a fail. This is only a violation of your rights if the government is forcing you to submit to these searches. You aren't being forced, because taking an air flight is a purely voluntary act. /thread.
 
I haven't been flying at all lately (which I consider to be a blessing), yet I believe my boss has plans to send me to Spain pretty soon. A Spanish Army contract has come our way for night vision mods on a fleet of Bell AB-212 aircraft.

I'll take your word for it about the security not being too invasive. I'll just roll with the flow. No radiation for me though. I'd prefer to be felt up.

I've been patted down several times (I tend to wear underwire bras, and that seems to trigger some metal detectors). Both the screening machine and the pat downs are so non-eventful. But, you let me know your experiences.
 
The government does not have the right to perform unreasonable searches and seizures just because something crosses state lines. Just like they have no right to ban certain churches that happened to be engaged in interstate commerce. The interstate commerce clause does not invalidate the Bill of Rights.

It does have the right if you give your consent. Just like a private buisness has a right to do the same if you give your consent. You can be subjected to pretty much anything under the sun if you give your consent.

And while they certainly cannot ban churches they CAN ban certain commerce from crossing state lines, weather a church does the selling or not. For example: It is illegal to sell tobacco across state lines unless you have a license to do so. It is also illegal to sell liquor across state lines unless you have a license to do so. The list could go on and on.
 
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