View Poll Results: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

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  • invasive pat downs

    12 10.62%
  • Non invasive pat downs.

    31 27.43%
  • Subjected to radiation so you and or your children can be virtually stripped searched.

    17 15.04%
  • Real strip searches

    11 9.73%
  • Cavity search.

    53 46.90%
  • walking through a metal detector.

    52 46.02%
  • other

    29 25.66%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

  1. #91
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Number of hijackings committed since 9/11 - Zero.
    Number of successful terrorist attacks since 9/11 - Zero.
    Number of failed terrorist attacks since 9/11 thwarted by the TSA - Zero.
    Number of failed terrorist attacks since 9/11 thwarted by passengers - Two.
    Number of flights originating in United States since 9/11 - About 250 million.
    Public perception of the value of intensive pre-screening? - Priceless.

    Sorry. Couldn't resist. You make an excellent case right there, actually. It is disconcerting to me that the body scanner contracts worth $173 million were awarded to "politically connected" firm Rapiscan. One of Rapiscan's lobbyists includes Susan Carr, former senior legislative aid to Rep. David Price, Chairman of the Homeland Security subcommittee. It's also said that George Soros owns over 10,00shares of OSI, Rapiscan's parent company. It can't help but give one pause... George Soros also profiting off controversial new TSA scanners | Washington Examiner

    Still, unless and until the safety protocols used at TSA checkpoints are either found unConstitutional -- or Congress feels the heat of the 15% of people who apparently strenuously object to these procedures - or until passenger numbers are effected negatively by these procedures, we're stuck with 'em. And people who make grandstanding objections against them while in the checkpoint line are a pain in the ass to the rest of us who just want to get on with it.

    Personally, I think the emphasis of the public should be on, "Why don't we profile?" Subjecting every single person who is wearing sloppy clothing (like burqas, as an example) to either a body scan or a pat down makes good sense to me. Unravelling a baby's bunting makes good sense to me. Asking a Muslim woman (if she even is Muslim) to remove her facial covering makes good sense to me. Do we do that? I don't know, but I don't think so.

    It is impossible to prove that TSA checks have prevented even one incident...just as it is impossible to prove how many casualties were saved by dropping two a-bombs during WWII.

    Security checks make the majority of air travelers feel safer. Right now these security protocols are mandatory. End of story, as far as I'm concerned.
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  2. #92
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Actually it does. Or more specifically, it means that we should try to identify terrorists, rather than trying to identify terrorists who happen to have explosives in their underwear at the airport.
    Oh so instead of catching them in the act you want to catch them before they commit the crime. Gotcha. You seem to be big on the Constitution. Which part of the Constitution did you just violate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Yes it is. It's still a complete waste of money, as terrorists can very easily blow up something else.
    Why yes they can. So tell me. Why did the 9/11 hijackers hijack those planes instead of going for one of those easier ways?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    OK, so what do you think terrorists would achieve by specifically bombing an airplane, as opposed to anything else? They could kill just as many people on a metro. They could shut down air travel just as easily by blowing themselves up in the security line at the airport. Etc, etc.
    Terrorism isn't about mass carnage. It is about making people afraid. Which do you think would cause more fear? Blowing up the metro or ramming a couple of planes into the twin towers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    No terrorist is going to be dissuaded from committing an act of terrorism just because we installed nudie booths at the airport. He'll just change his method/target, making it a completely worthless security measure.
    You have a funny defination of worthless don't you? So if a "nudie booth" as you call them deter's them enough for them to decide to change their targets and methods then that was a worthless security measure? Hmm.... Let me do the math here...

    Body scanner + airport = no more terrorists trying to blow up planes or hijacking them = safer air travel

    I don't know what kind of math you are doing but that sure doesn't seem worthless to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    Number of hijackings committed since 9/11 - Zero.
    Number of successful terrorist attacks on aircraft since 9/11 - Zero.
    Number of failed terrorist attacks since 9/11 thwarted by the TSA - Zero.
    Number of failed terrorist attacks since 9/11 thwarted by passengers - Two.
    Number of flights originating in United States since 9/11 - About 250 million.
    Great! Now. How many were there before the increased security that happened after 9/11.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    What makes you think they would be voted out? There are people here justifying nudie booths to keep us safe from terrorists. I'm quite sure that there would be a large contingent of people defending these other gross affronts to our civil liberties too, if our government ever wanted to implement them. And you'd probably be among them.
    If you seriously think that those of us that don't agree with you would agree to most of the silly examples that you attempted to use as a fear tactic you truely haven't been comprehending what we have been saying.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

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  3. #93
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm pretty sure those cases ended with the dudes on the plane...not having been caught by TSA.
    You miss my point. If it were harder to get the stuff onto the plane, those cases would not have happened. The more technology can show these materials, the safer we'll be. Respectful pat downs, scanners, searches, whatever. If I live through the flight, I'm happy.

  4. #94
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mickey Shane View Post
    We need to drop back to the pre 9/11 levels of airline passenger security. If flying isn't a right, why can't we look at it like this: Instead of saying "you must submit to whatever the TSA wishes to use upon you to board a passenger aircraft." Why not say: "We're dropping back the security measures. If you're too afraid to fly, just remember that flying is not a right. You have the right to use other methods of transportation".

    The rest of us will proclaim loudly, that the terrorists have in fact not won, and board the damn airplane.
    Or we can keep the current security measures or expand the security measures to include body scanners and still tell those that try to claim that flying is a right that it is not? Oh wait...that's already happening.
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    4th amendment.
    So, your right not to be searched 'unreasonably' is greater than my right not to be killed by the bomb you bring onto the plane... got it.

  6. #96
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Oh so instead of catching them in the act you want to catch them before they commit the crime. Gotcha. You seem to be big on the Constitution. Which part of the Constitution did you just violate?
    Planning a terrorist attack is a crime. If you think that's unconstitutional, then you have a rather weak grasp on the Constitution.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang
    Why yes they can. So tell me. Why did the 9/11 hijackers hijack those planes instead of going for one of those easier ways?
    It's already been explained to you why a repeat of 9/11 is not likely. Passengers are not going to allow planes to be hijacked for a very long time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang
    Terrorism isn't about mass carnage. It is about making people afraid. Which do you think would cause more fear? Blowing up the metro or ramming a couple of planes into the twin towers?
    See above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang
    You have a funny defination of worthless don't you? So if a "nudie booth" as you call them deter's them enough for them to decide to change their targets and methods then that was a worthless security measure? Hmm.... Let me do the math here...
    Yes. Just like it would be a worthless security measure to try to prevent murders by guarding the house where the last murder occurred. OK, whatever, a determined murderer will just kill his victim somewhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang
    Body scanner + airport = no more terrorists trying to blow up planes or hijacking them = safer air travel
    Both your premise and your conclusion are incorrect. It doesn't make it impossible for terrorists to blow up planes. Nor would it make air travel safer even if it did, it would just shift the risk from the plane to the security line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang
    Great! Now. How many were there before the increased security that happened after 9/11.
    Number of hijackings prior to 9/11 - I dunno, a few to Cuba. In any case, not enough to warrant nudie booths.
    Number of successful terrorist attacks on aircraft originating in the United States prior to 9/11 - Zero.
    Number of failed terrorist attacks prior to 9/11 thwarted by airport security - Zero.
    Number of failed terrorist attacks prior to 9/11 thwarted by passengers - None that I am aware of.
    Number of flights originating in United States prior to 9/11 - Billions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang
    If you seriously think that those of us that don't agree with you would agree to most of the silly examples that you attempted to use as a fear tactic you truely haven't been comprehending what we have been saying.
    The nudie booths are every bit as ridiculous as, say, Minority Report sensors in the sidewalks. The only difference is the government is currently trying to implement the one and not the other. I have no doubt that if any of the other things on my list were on the government agenda, you'd be defending them even while continuing to mock the ridiculousness of all the others.
    Last edited by Kandahar; 11-19-10 at 11:26 AM.
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Kind of negates the 4th amendment argument.

    http://volokh.com/2010/11/15/do-new-...rth-amendment/
    On one hand, the lower courts have recognized that using technology to screen for weapons or explosive devices is a Fourth Amendment “search.” On the other hand, the courts have traditionally permitted the use of such screens for airport security as reasonable (and therefore constitutional) searches in ways that give a lot of deference to the national security interest in avoiding airplane hijackings and terrorist attacks. See, e.g., United States v. Hartwell ‚436 F.3d 174 (3d Cir. 2006) (Alito, J.). The basic idea is that screening to stop a terrorist attack is an “administrative search” that is constitutional so long as it is reasonable — and that it is reasonable so long as it it is not overly invasive given the threat that it is designed to deter and stop.
    Last edited by Whovian; 11-19-10 at 11:25 AM.

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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    don't carry **** in your pockets that will set off the metal detector. don't pack **** in your carry-on that looks like a bomb or a gun on x-ray. don't stroke out about someone seeing the blue outline of your tiny weiner on a body scanner screen.
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Ok, I know this has already been said before but I'm going to try and give it one more shot. Maybe it will get through this time.

    An airport is run by a private company. As such you have no "right" to fly. You can be denied passage by the airline at any time. Because the airline is a company and not the government the 9th Amendment of the Constitution does not apply. You buy the ticket to ride on this companies planes knowing full well what will happen when you go to get on an airplane. Now the airline is working with the government in order to provide a more secure passage for their customers. One of the requirements to get onto that plane is (or will be) a body scanner. The Airline has agreed to let the use of such technology be allowed.

    Now since you know full well what will happen if you go to fly somewhere and still attempt to fly on their planes you do give your permission to be subjected to a private companies security measures. Giving someone your consent does not have to be done by words. It can be done through actions also. In this case the action of buying the ticket and trying to go through the security check point is the way that you give your consent. Because of this your 4th amendment right is nullified.

    And if you don't believe me that airlines are working with the government...well...here ya go....

    [url=http://www.9-11commission.gov/hearings/hearing2/witness_may.htm]Second public hearing of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States
    [/quote]
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  10. #100
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    Re: What should you be subjected to in order to fly on airplane?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    No she likes to use the correct language that does not confer emotionalism.
    She likes language that hides what something it. The fact is those full body scanners are virtual strip searches.

    And yes those full body scanners do expose you to radiation. The same amount that a normal X-ray machine gives you. Which is negligible and in no way effects you. You get more radiation from standing outside in the sun than you do from an X-ray.
    Then why do x-ray technicians were protective clothing?

    Pat downs are only used for certain reasons. They do not give every single person that goes through the check point a pat down. To claim otherwise really is fear mongering.

    As for the virtual strip search bit. Sure it is. But you do not have to go through it.
    If you choose to opt out of the virtual strip search you will be submitted to an invasive pat down.

    You can always take a train or bus or your own car to go to your destination. It is your choice. You are not subjected to it without your permission. And since if you do go through it because you want to use the plane instead of any other option available to you then you're giving your permission to be scanned with it. Which means you waved any right that you may have had away.
    You should not be stripped searched every time you wish to travel by plane. And by allowing the government to do this for airline travelers you are giving the government a black check to strip search you for other modes of travel. After all terrorist happen on trains, buses and anywhere else. And you are opening the door for something even worse that just virtual strip searches.


    Yeah and those same number of years ago did not have the same, more advanced technology available today. Much of it is just as available to criminals as it is to officers.
    I am sure criminals will figure out that they can shove stuff up their ass to make explosives. It do not want the government subjecting people to cavity searches.



    As has already been said before, people will continue to think up of ways to get around security measures. Only way to counter that is to think up of new security measures. And since you do not have a right to fly and you have other options of travel then by going to an airport to use their planes you are giving them permission to subject you to their security measures. Especially since you know that they are there.
    Being forcefully coerced is not giving them permission.

    More fear mongering. They do not randomly take people aside and do a cavity search of them. They must have a reason to do so first. And even then they must first do a cursory search in which if they find nothing suspicious they can go no further. You seem to be under the impression that they will do this to anyone and everyone based upon a whim. There are rules and regulations that they must follow also.
    Terrorist can get more clever. As you said you do not have a right travel so the government can force you to submit to a cavity search because it makes everyone safer.



    And I have already stated that I wouldn't care if they scanned me or my kids with a full body scanner. I do not see it as invasive. But then there is a big difference between physical strip searches and virtual ones. One is physical. The other is virtual with no laying of hands on the body.
    If you were stripped search then you would be the one taking off your clothers, not the TSA agents unless you refused. You allow the government to be this intrusive you open the door for move invasive ****. Because just like you willfully submitting to virtual strip searches and invasive pat downs there will be idiots who think oh yeah I do not care what the government does as long as it keeps me safe.



    It's not. Never claimed otherwise. But if you want to appeal to emotionalism then I would suggest using something that is not used everyday already in another setting and is already acceptable to the general populace. Or do you think that those 13 year old girls dads would not be just as offended just because thier daughters are in juvenile detention?
    A airport is a not a prison. There is no comparison between a prison where you have done something to forfeit your rights and a airport where you have done nothing to forfeit your rights against unreasonable searches.


    Who says he hasn't already? Also how do you think they get the pictures that they have for their websites? Magic?
    Cameras are small. If someone is busy doing something then they are not going to notice someone snapping photos, unless it is dark and the camera is using a flash.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

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