View Poll Results: Are restrictions on the purchase/sale of firearms constitutional?

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  • Yes

    31 37.80%
  • No

    43 52.44%
  • Other

    8 9.76%
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Thread: 2nd amendment rights.

  1. #61
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Come now, sir. You know as well as I, that playing devil's advocate is one thing; willfully setting aside logic and reason, and willfully ignoring available evidence to the contrary, is something else.
    When gun control issues come up, a certain small (but annoying) segment always seems to come back with the argument 'No, it's unconstitutional'. They make no further argument based on the merits of the particular bill/idea in question, they simply state that it is unconstitutional as if that ends the argument. This is an attempt to counter that argument by pointing out the ridiculousness that can ensue (i.e. the government cannot prohibit you from owning a gun, but they can prohibit you from buying one) if the constitution is interpreted too strictly. Obviously, in this case, the 2nd amendment was not intended to be read that way, however, if we're already agreeing to interpret it a little more liberally in that case, then arguing that it cannot be interpreted a little more liberally in another case is ridiculous.

    The short version is, arguments for gun control should be debated on their merits, and not simply sidestepped by stating 'it's unconstitutional' and nothing else.
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  2. #62
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    When gun control issues come up, a certain small (but annoying) segment always seems to come back with the argument 'No, it's unconstitutional'. They make no further argument based on the merits of the particular bill/idea in question, they simply state that it is unconstitutional as if that ends the argument. This is an attempt to counter that argument by pointing out the ridiculousness that can ensue (i.e. the government cannot prohibit you from owning a gun, but they can prohibit you from buying one) if the constitution is interpreted too strictly. Obviously, in this case, the 2nd amendment was not intended to be read that way, however, if we're already agreeing to interpret it a little more liberally in that case, then arguing that it cannot be interpreted a little more liberally in another case is ridiculous.

    The short version is, arguments for gun control should be debated on their merits, and not simply sidestepped by stating 'it's unconstitutional' and nothing else.

    Purely on their merits then, there should be no gun control, as gun control laws have never been demonstrated to achieve their intended goals in America.

    But constitutionality is indeed an issue, a major one. As Guy Incognito pointed out, as a fundamental right it must be protected, and infringement narrowly construed. Government intrest must be shown to be extremely compelling, and the infringement shown to be necessary, useful and narrowly focused to achieve a specific goal.

    By those standards hardly any gun control laws in the US would qualify as meeting constitutional muster, as they are almost entirely ineffective in their stated goals of reducing violent crime.

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  3. #63
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Constitutional this , Constitutional that !
    Why do so many people rely on an old scrap of paper written hundreds of years ago ?
    Why don't they try thinking for themselves, coming up with proposals to allow life to be better for most of us?
    I believe that capability does not exist, that "these people" are selfish, only caring about their own agenda, their own fears...
    Seriously, people, its not the 1700s any more.

  4. #64
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Yes, some restrictions on the purchase and sale like taxes, licenses, etc are constitutional.

    The reason why some restrictions on sale, like a five day waiting period, are unconstitutional, is because they infringe the right to keep and bear. Mere restrictions on the purchase and sale are permissible, the question is what impact on the right to keep and bear arms do the restrictions have.


    Shall not be infringed, does not include (you need a license)
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  5. #65
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Determining if somebody is a legal US citizen and determining if somebody is of sound mind are two huge restrictions. What else do you want, Nancy Pelosi, a five day waiting period?
    If a man truly possessed a "sound mind", that last thing he would be doing is buying more guns and ammo..
    England has the answer.

  6. #66
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    If a man truly possessed a "sound mind", that last thing he would be doing is buying more guns and ammo..
    England has the answer.


    Oh joy. bloviated nonsense.


    Gun Control's Twisted Outcome - Reason Magazine



    n a June evening two years ago, Dan Rather made many stiff British upper lips quiver by reporting that England had a crime problem and that, apart from murder, "theirs is worse than ours." The response was swift and sharp. "Have a Nice Daydream," The Mirror, a London daily, shot back, reporting: "Britain reacted with fury and disbelief last night to claims by American newsmen that crime and violence are worse here than in the US." But sandwiched between the article's battery of official denials -- "totally misleading," "a huge over-simplification," "astounding and outrageous" -- and a compilation of lurid crimes from "the wild west culture on the other side of the Atlantic where every other car is carrying a gun," The Mirror conceded that the CBS anchorman was correct. Except for murder and rape, it admitted, "Britain has overtaken the US for all major crimes."

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  7. #67
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    If a man truly possessed a "sound mind", that last thing he would be doing is buying more guns and ammo..
    England has the answer.

    Ah, so wishing to be able to protect your family is insanity. Thank you for clearing that up for us. Your wisdom is truly astonishing.

    Post something about how you're more likely to shoot your own family member than a criminal, and I will counter with statistics showing that firearm accidents are actually rare and defensive uses more common than usually credited in the MSM.

    I had an article, which I can probably find, where a Brit visiting America talks about how safe he felt here, more safe than in London, and concluded there were a handful of primary reasons, among them our laws against public drunkenness, and our tradition of firearm ownership and self-defense.

    I can debunk anything you've got. Bring it on.

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  8. #68
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    I'll sum up at the end of the post, but I prefer to let my "crew" sing the opening verse....




    I have pages and pages of Founder comments on the 2A.

    To sum up:
    All American citizens are members of the "unorganized militia".
    The Founders, those who wrote the Constitution, clearly intended the militia, that is the people, to be as well armed as the "Standing army".
    Therefore it is not Constitutional to restrict the citizenry from owning/possessing/carrying anything that a US military Infantryman might carry as a personal weapon.
    If only we had the quality of people for this to be possible..
    We did not back then, and we do not, today...
    IMO, the Constitution was written back then, in the 1700s by the tea baggers of that era to appease the gun lovers of that day...

  9. #69
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by earthworm View Post
    If only we had the quality of people for this to be possible..
    We did not back then, and we do not, today...
    IMO, the Constitution was written back then, in the 1700s by the tea baggers of that era to appease the gun lovers of that day...


    not only are you ignorant, you are rather a vulgar hoplophobe, eh?
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  10. #70
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Here is the text of the 2nd amendment.
    Going strictly by what is written, restrictions on the purchase of firearms seem to be constitutional. Agree or disagree?
    Note that I'm not asking whether they are a good idea or not, that's a separate debate. I'm only asking whether they are constitutional.
    You have to be more specific.
    If the question is "any" restrictions, then the answer is no.
    If the question is "certain" restrictions, then, depending on the examples you set out for consideration, the answer is "maybe".

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