View Poll Results: Are restrictions on the purchase/sale of firearms constitutional?

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Thread: 2nd amendment rights.

  1. #561
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Mr. Tushnet's words explain what the constitution means, and Judge Posner's argument is sound. Since you haven't probed any actual argument against either you forfeit the point. I happily accept your de facto concession.

    As for your quotations, I've already dispensed with them earlier in the thread. There is not a single one of those quotations that cannot be read to support my point as well as yours. They are, at best, hopelessly vague and at worst don't go to your point at all. It's nonsense and there is nothing there even close to law.

    The Constitution says "keep and bear arms." That has a technical meaning, and nothing in your quotations disproves that.

    On the contrary, the quotes I posted, from the most authoritative sources possible, do indeed refute your "position", which is little more than a convoluted attempt to twist and squirm around the obvious: the people who WROTE the 2A clearly intended there to be an individual right to arms.

    That you pretend they are vague and pointless would be laughable, if it wasn't so clearly disingenuous. Indeed, I have begun to suspect that your entire position on the 2A is disingenuous. You begin by claiming to be very pro-2A and even presenting yourself as extravagant in your support of it, but then you present specious arguments by non-authoritative sources against the individual right, ignore the clear and obvious sentiments of those who wrote the 2A, ignore the body of jurisprudence that affirms the individual right, and otherwise twist and convolute and attempt to define terms without supporting evidence of any substance, to a degree I can most politely call incredible.

    When considering the way you manevuered yourself into a position of claiming 2A advocacy, then twisted around into arguing against individual 2A rights, one is tempted to bring out terms like Hegelian Dialectic.

    I have no time for such games. Your points have been repeatedly and conclusively refuted; your failure to recognize this reality is not my concern.

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  2. #562
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Then the question begs - how the hell does anyone in this time period know they even used that phrase as a "term of art", if there's no definition of it from that time period?

    The only possible way is if someone defined it somewhere - it doesn't have to be a damn dictionary.
    That's a good question. The answer is that the definition is discerned by historians from the usage of the term in legal documents. Just because dictionaries didn't exist doesn't mean that words didn't have meanings. Those meanings can be ascertained by historians. Tushnet didn't just make it up, he is a top notch scholar who based his opinion of a thorough understanding the the period and the use of the term as it was used in the late eighteenth century.

  3. #563
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    And he continues to pretend I'm not even posting.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  4. #564
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I cannot help but notice that Guy has flat out ignored -- refused even to acknowledge -- every single post I've made which have factually, irrefutably blown his deluded rantings out of the water. Pretended those posts weren't even there.

    That is so, so, so sad.

    Yet as the same time, hilarious as all hell.
    I think we are both getting the ostrich treatment. Fine with me-when you stick your head in the sand guess what is hanging out for everyone to beat on?



  5. #565
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    When considering the way you manevuered yourself into a position of claiming 2A advocacy, then twisted around into arguing against individual 2A rights, one is tempted to bring out terms like Hegelian Dialectic.
    Frankly, you have a very shallow understanding of what I have been arguing if this is what you think. I have stated repeatedly that I believe gun ownership rights to be fundamental, even though the original meaning of the second amendment does not create such a right. You should take the time to read my posts, it would do you a world of good.

    I am not an originalist, and my whole argument is to expose the weakness of originalism as a support for gun rights. Do you care about gun rights or do you care about what the original meaning of the Constitution was? The two are in conflict.

    I don't think the Founders have any bearing on how we should interpret the law, but if you do, then you cannot support the keep and bear clause as divorced from the militia clause, because zero founders even considered such and idea (your own quotes proved that quite nicely!).

    Therein lies the hypocrisy of the originalism/gun-rights alliance. It is a based on a lie. If we want a secure foundation for gun ownership rights, we need to find them elsewhere besides the original meaning of the second amendment. A good place to look is the meaning modern society reads into the second. Much like Brown v. Board of Education, an interpretivist approach to the law can serve to expand civil rights, and that is how we should approach gun ownership rights.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 11-19-10 at 11:58 PM.

  6. #566
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Frankly, you have a very shallow understanding of what I have been arguing if this is what you think. I have stated repeatedly that I advocate that gun ownership rights are fundamental, even though the original meaning of the second amendment does not create such a right. You should take the time to read my posts, it would do you a world of good.
    OMG this is causing me to pee myself. You have no concept of this topic, you refuse to debate those who are constantly crushing your statist BS and now you tell a guy who clearly has demonstrated he is far more learned on this subject that reading your crap would do him a world of good?

    Maybe Chief Justice Roberts ought to seek Joe Biden's advice about constitutional jurisprudence as well?



  7. #567
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    mad Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Read the last 4 words CAREFULLY: "...shall not be infringed."

    Every cottonpicking gun regulation and mandate is an infringement and is therefore unconstitutional.

    I cannot possibly understand how any sane Supreme Court justice could rule otherwise.

  8. #568
    Sporadic insanity normal.


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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulvoter View Post
    Read the last 4 words CAREFULLY: "...shall not be infringed."

    Every cotton-picking gun regulation and mandate is an infringement and is therefore unconstitutional.

    I cannot possibly understand how any sane Supreme Court justice could rule otherwise.
    The "interpretation" involved does not have anything to do with "shall not be infringed", since that is perfectly clear.

    What people argue and present different interpretations of is what, precisely, is not to be infringed upon.

    The two main arguments seem to be:

    1. That there is an individual right to keep and bear arms and it shall not be infringed upon.
    2. That there is not an individual right to keep and bear arms, but only a right to keep and bear arms if you are in "the militia", and thus restrictions on individual gun ownership do not violate the constitution.
    And other less popular arguments.

    I think the currently most prevalent (in terms of numbers of people who ascribe to it) argument is that the second amendment is designed to prevent any infringement on an individual right to keep and bear arms.
    Education.

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  9. #569
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ronpaulvoter View Post
    Read the last 4 words CAREFULLY: "...shall not be infringed."

    Every cottonpicking gun regulation and mandate is an infringement and is therefore unconstitutional.

    I cannot possibly understand how any sane Supreme Court justice could rule otherwise.
    Here, read it again... You'll find that there is no AND after free state, the only way the two parts of the sentence can be joined. The coma, the way it's used here, is only a pause, not a new statement.

    Amendment II
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

    Frankly I couldn't care less if people are allowed to carry gun or not. If people must murder, they can always find other ways to do it.

    ricksfolly

  10. #570
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    Here, read it again... You'll find that there is no AND after free state, the only way the two parts of the sentence can be joined. The coma, the way it's used here, is only a pause, not a new statement.

    Amendment II
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

    Frankly I couldn't care less if people are allowed to carry gun or not. If people must murder, they can always find other ways to do it.

    ricksfolly
    This argument didn't suddenly become not ridiculous since the last time you posted it.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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