View Poll Results: Are restrictions on the purchase/sale of firearms constitutional?

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Thread: 2nd amendment rights.

  1. #551
    warrior of the wetlands
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I agree with that statement. Just don't make the mistake of reading the modern meaning of "keep and bear arms" into the second amendment. It is a term of art with a precise meaning related to military service.
    no it isn't. you are wrong again. keep and bear arms was not conditioned on serving in the militia



  2. #552
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    There is no AND after state, only a comma, and a comma simply means a pause in a paragraph, proving that you flunked your 5th grad exam.

    Here, read it again. Change the comma to AND, and you'll see what I mean.

    Amendment II
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

    Of course the right for people to bear arms means nothing to me as a practice, the trend is already in place, can't be stopped, and compared with all the other deaths, the ratio of murders with guns isn't all that imposing, but I do try to follow the punctuation rules.


    Richard
    you are wrong and this is a modification of some of your earlier nonsense such as claiming that guns were banned for those not in the militia



  3. #553
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    If Mr. Tushnet couldn't convince you how can I? The burden of proof is on your to refute his position, and I haven't seen that from you.

    As for providing you links, I'm giving you citations, that is the best I can do. Most of my research is from books. Sorry.


    Like I said, my quotation from Tushnet is the proof. But you don't have to take his word for it, just do a little research yourself. Any historian of the era will have arrived at a similar conclusion.

    You're the one who is reaching with this false history you cling to, real history is low hanging fruit by comparison. You want me to write up a bibliography for you so you can see what I mean?
    There are many others who disagree with his claims. Tushnet is not a definitive source. Others have stated its clearly individual. So citing people that we in the field don't find useful or authoritative is idiotic



  4. #554
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    For example

    SSRN-What Did "Bear Arms" Mean in the Second Amendment? by Clayton Cramer, Joseph Olson

    This paper demonstrates that the Founding Generation did not understand bear arms as limited to military or collective militia duty but saw it as merely one way of expressing the concept of possession (as a modern speaker might say carry a gun).



  5. #555
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Or Professor Malcom whom I have previously cited

    http://www.abanet.org/publiced/previ...stJMalcolm.pdf



  6. #556
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by M14 Shooter View Post
    Why do you make stuff up like this?
    Interestingly enough, first American dictionary was written in 1798 by Samuel Johnson Jr., no relation to the more famous Dr. Samuel Johnson who wrote the first British English dictionary a half century earlier.

    Black's law dictionary wasn't written until a hundred years later.

    So why wasn't the American legal term of art "keep and bear arms" defined in the eighteenth century? Because there simply weren't any dictionaries to define it in.

  7. #557
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Mr Tushnet doesn't trump the words of the people who wrote the Constitution, nor does Posner.
    Mr. Tushnet's words explain what the constitution means, and Judge Posner's argument is sound. Since you haven't provided any actual argument against either you forfeit the point. I happily accept your de facto concession.

    As for your quotations, I've already dispensed with them earlier in the thread. There is not a single one of those quotations that cannot be read to support my point as well as yours. They are, at best, hopelessly vague and at worst don't go to your point at all. It's nonsense and there is nothing there even close to law.

    The Constitution says "keep and bear arms." That has a technical meaning, and nothing in your quotations disproves that.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 11-19-10 at 11:24 PM.

  8. #558
    Sporadic insanity normal.


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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Interestingly enough, first American dictionary was written in 1798 by Samuel Johnson Jr., no relation to the more famous Dr. Samuel Johnson who wrote the first British English dictionary a half century earlier.

    Black's law dictionary wasn't written until a hundred years later.

    So why wasn't the American legal term of art "keep and bear arms" defined in the eighteenth century? Because there simply weren't any dictionaries to define it in.
    Then the question begs - how the hell does anyone in this time period know they even used that phrase as a "term of art", if there's no definition of it from that time period?

    The only possible way is if someone defined it somewhere - it doesn't have to be a damn dictionary.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  9. #559
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Professor Joyce Lee Malcolm long has been the
    leading authority on the historical English right to
    arms. Her works include two books published by
    Harvard: Guns and Violence: The English Experience
    (2002) (“G&V”), and To Keep and Bear Arms: The
    Origins of an Anglo-American Right (1994) (“K&B”).
    The latter was cited below, Pet. App. 21a n.8, and in
    Printz v. United States, 521 U.S. 898, 938 n.2 (1997)
    (Thomas, J., concurring); Antonin Scalia, A Matter of
    Interpretation 136-37 (1997); and Whether the
    Second Amendment Secures an Individual Right, Op.
    Off. Legal Counsel, passim (Aug. 24, 2004) (“OLC
    Opinion”), available at USDOJ: Office of Legal Counsel
    opinions.htm; among other places. She has a Ph.D in
    comparative history from Brandeis University, is a
    Fellow of the Royal Historical Society, and is
    Professor of Legal History at George Mason
    University School of Law


    Amici therefore set out below the right to have and
    use arms in English law by the time of the Founding.
    Amici then show how early American authorities
    claimed and extended that right, including in
    interpreting the Second Amendment. The English
    right was a right of individuals, not conditioned on
    militia service; individuals might exercise the right
    collectively, but the unquestioned core was a broadly
    applicable and robust right to “keep” firearms in
    one’s home for self-defense. Even the “wellrecognized
    exceptions” confirmed this core right, by
    focusing on the carrying, not the keeping, of weapons.



  10. #560
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    I cannot help but notice that Guy has flat out ignored -- refused even to acknowledge -- every single post I've made which have factually, irrefutably blown his deluded rantings out of the water. Pretended those posts weren't even there.

    That is so, so, so sad.

    Yet as the same time, hilarious as all hell.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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