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Thread: 2nd amendment rights.

  1. #541
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    One would think that if, indeed, "keep and bear" was a "term of art" (or whatever they called it then), then someone would have defined it somewhere - and that said definition could be located, documented, and presented to prove your point.
    It was defined by common eighteenth-century usage, which is well known to historians (and poorly understood by lawyers). It was well known at the time that "keep and bear" was a term of art relating to military service. The reason nobody defined it is because it was before the first dictionary was ever written.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 11-19-10 at 08:20 PM.

  2. #542
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    If Mr. Tushnet couldn't convince you how can I? The burden of proof is on your to refute his position, and I haven't seen that from you.


    The "burden of proof" is for him to back it up his assertion with evidence. And it falls to YOU to do so if you adopt his position as your own.

    Your burden, too, is to make sure that what you quote of his is in its full context, and there's certainly no reason to think you did.


    As for providing you links, I'm giving you citations, that is the best I can do. Most of my research is from books. Sorry.
    No, it's not. You spent a day Googling, if even that long, and it wasn't even "research" -- it was a fishing trip to confirm the position you want to take.


    Like I said, my quotation from Tushnet is the proof. But you don't have to take his word for it, just do a little research yourself. Any historian of the era will have arrived at a similar conclusion.
    Strangely enough, you completely ignore posts which refute this assertion outright. You've been doing it this entire thread.

    You're the one who is reaching with this false history you cling to, real history is low hanging fruit by comparison. You want me to write up a bibliography for you so you can see what I mean?
    If you do, be sure to include the link to the web page that you copy/paste it from.
    Last edited by Harshaw; 11-19-10 at 08:23 PM.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  3. #543
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It was defined by common eighteenth-century usage, which is well known to historians (and poorly understood by lawyers). It was well known at the time that "keep and bear" was a term of art relating to military service. The reason nobody defined it is because it was before the first dictionary was ever written.
    THe first full-blown English dictionary was published in 1604, when the language as we know it was barely a few decades old. Apparently, you think Noah Webster's was the first.

    And, nice dig at the legal scholars. Apparently you do understand that not one agrees with you on interpreting this legal matter, while at the same time you pretend no "historians" disagree with you.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  4. #544
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    The reason nobody defined it is because it was before the first dictionary was ever written.
    Why do you make stuff up like this?

  5. #545
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Ok, you've got a fair point Goshin. If my view is correct, then I ought to have prominent founders who support that view, or at least can be read consistently with it.
    Having read thu this thread, it seems you have been told this numerous times in numerous ways. Good to see you finally recognize this.
    Your recognition probably has something to do with you finally finding something that you think supports that position.

    As Coxe explains....
    In order for your position to stand, you have to show a positive declaration of exclusion. Coxe doesn't give you this, and so it doesnt support your position.
    Last edited by M14 Shooter; 11-19-10 at 08:55 PM.

  6. #546
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    Going strictly by what is written, restrictions on the purchase of firearms seem to be constitutional. Agree or disagree?
    Certain restrictions, yes. Certain restrictions, no.

  7. #547
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    If Mr. Tushnet couldn't convince you how can I? The burden of proof is on your to refute his position, and I haven't seen that from you.
    No.
    Mr. Tushnet couldn’t convince me because the quote you provided was only an unsupported opinion/analysis, with no references to any evidence whatsoever that would prove his (and as a result, your) assertion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    As for providing you links, I'm giving you citations, that is the best I can do. Most of my research is from books. Sorry.
    Not good enough.

    Those books must have references to supporting evidence (otherwise, I don’t see why you believe his assertions without proof), and it shouldn’t be hard for you to tell me not only the name of the book, but also give me info on where to locate the supporting evidence – if it exists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Like I said, my quotation from Tushnet is the proof. But you don't have to take his word for it, just do a little research yourself. Any historian of the era will have arrived at a similar conclusion.
    The quote from Tushnet is NOT proof. It’s an unsupported assertion. And since it is your position, why don’t YOU find those other historians who agree with him. I have my position already in place, and you’re trying to prove my position wrong – why the hell should I look for information to help you prove me wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You're the one who is reaching with this false history you cling to; real history is low hanging fruit by comparison. You want me to write up a bibliography for you so you can see what I mean?
    It’s your opinion that my version of history is false – prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It was defined by common eighteenth-century usage, which is well known to historians (and poorly understood by lawyers).
    Prove it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It was well known at the time that “keep and bear" was a term of art relating to military service.
    Again, prove it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    The reason nobody defined it is because it was before the first dictionary was ever written.
    As helpfully provided by someone else already, you are incorrect about the dictionary, and since the entirety of your statement rests on that foundation, you have yet to prove any of it.

    The rest is simply unfounded assertions with no evidence to back it up.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  8. #548
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Mr Tushnet doesn't trump the words of the people who wrote the Constitution, nor does Posner.


    I apologize for repeating myself, gentlemen... but for some reason the words of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, George Mason, and numerous other Founders just keep getting ignored in favor of obscure historians and minor jurists.

    George Washington seems pretty convinced that there is an individual right to possess weapons. Thomas Jefferson and George Mason appear to be convinced that the right of a private citizen to possess and carry arms for self-defense is a vital and unquestioned right. Many Founders indicate that the 2A was not solely about militia service, but also about quelling crime via personal self-protection.

    I have yet to see anyone post any credible refutation that the Founders quoted below, didn't mean exactly what they said.



    What the Founders of the US said about guns:
    Benjamin Franklin: Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary
    safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." (Nov 11 1755, from the Pennsylvania Assembly's reply to
    the Governor of Pennsylvania.)

    Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither
    inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and
    better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man
    may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man
    ." (1764 Letter and speech from T.
    Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)

    John Adams: "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self
    defense."
    (A defense of the Constitution of the US)

    George Washington: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the
    people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than
    99% of them [guns] by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very
    atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference [crime].
    When firearms go, all goes,
    we need them every hour.
    " (Address to 1st session of Congress)

    George Mason: "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." (3 Elliot,
    Debates at 380)

    Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in
    almost every country in Europe." (1787, Pamphlets on the Constitution of the US)

    George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed." (Jan 14 1790, Boston Independent
    Chronicle.)

    Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (T. Jefferson papers,
    334, C.J. Boyd, Ed. 1950)

    James Madison: "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of
    other countries, whose people are afraid to trust them with arms
    ." (Federalist Paper #46)
    On what is the militia:

    George Mason: "I ask you sir, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people." (Elliott,
    Debates, 425-426)

    Richard Henry Lee: "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and
    include all men capable of bearing arms." (Additional letters from the Federal Farmer, at 169, 1788)

    James Madison: "A WELL REGULATED militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the
    best and most natural defense of a free country." (1st Annals of Congress, at 434, June 8th 1789,
    emphasis added.

    IMPORTANT NOTE: Back in the 18th century, a "regular" army meant an army that had
    standard military equipment. So a "well regulated" army was simply one that was "well equipped." It
    does NOT refer to a professional army. The 17th century folks used the term "STANDING Army"
    to describe a professional army. THEREFORE, "a well regulated militia" only means a well equipped
    militia. It does not imply the modern meaning of "regulated," which means controlled or administered
    by some superior entity. Federal control over the militia comes from other parts of the Constitution,
    but not from the second amendment.

    Patrick Henry: "The people have a right to keep and bear arms." (Elliott, Debates at 185)

    Alexander Hamilton: "...that standing army can never be formidable (threatening) to the liberties
    of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in the use of arms."
    (Federalist Paper #29)

    "Little more can be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed
    and equipped
    ." (Id) {responding to the claim that the militia itself could threaten liberty}" There is
    something so far-fetched, and so extravagant in the idea of danger of liberty from the militia that one
    is at a loss whether to treat it with gravity or raillery (mockery). (Id)
    FOUNDING FATHERS INTENT BEHIND THE CONSTITUTION:

    Samual Adams: "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United
    States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms
    ." (Convention of the Commonwealth
    of Mass., 86-87, date still being sought)

    Noah Webster: "Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority...the
    Constitution was made to guard against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages
    who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean
    to be masters." (Source still being sought)

    Thomas Jefferson: "On every occasion...[of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves
    back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates,
    and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it,
    [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed
    ." (June 12 1823, Letter to
    William Johnson)
    Answers.com - Founding fathers quotes on guns

    Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (T. Jefferson papers, 334, C.J. Boyd, Ed. 1950)

    Thomas Jefferson: "What country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance. Let them take arms." (Thomas Jefferson to James Madison)

    Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (1764 Letter and speech from T. Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)

    John Adams: "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self defense." (A defense of the Constitution of the US)

    Samual Adams: "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms." (Convention of the Commonwealth of Mass., 86-87, date still being sought)

    George Washington: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than 99% of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference .When firearms go, all goes, we need them every hour." (Address to 1st session of Congress)

    George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed." (Jan 14 1790, Boston Independent Chronicle.)

    George Mason: "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." (3 Elliot, Debates at 380)

    Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in almost every country in Europe." (1787, Pamphlets on the Constitution of the US)

    James Madison: "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of other countries, whose rulers are afraid to trust them with arms." (Federalist Paper #46)

    Patrick Henry: "The people have a right to keep and bear arms." (Elliott, Debates at 185)

    Richard Henry Lee: "To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of the people always possess arms and be taught alike, especially when young, how to use them..." (Richard Henry Lee writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, 1787-1788).

    Alexander Hamilton: "The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed" (The Federalist Papers at 184-8)





    I decided to throw this in just for fun and comparative reference:

    MODERN LEADERS THOUGHTS ON GUN CONTROL:

    Adolf Hitler: "This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun
    registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead."
    (Chancelor's Speech, 1935)

    Charles Shumer: (US Congress, has sworn an oath to defend the US Constitution) "All we ask for
    is registration, just like we do for cars." (Press conference, 1993, exact date being sought)

    Adof Hitler: "The most foolish mistake we could make would be to allow the subject peoples to
    possess arms. So let's not have any talk about native militias." (Hitler's Secret Conversations,
    1941-44, Farrar, Strauss and Young, 1953)

    Mao Tse Tung: "All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must
    command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party." (Problems of
    War and Strategy, Nov 6 1938, published in "Selected Works of Mao Zedong," 1965)

    Diane Feinstein: "US Senator, If I could have banned them all- 'Mr. and Mrs. America turn in
    your guns' -I would have!" (Statement on TV program 69 Minutes, Feb 5 1995)

    Mahatma Gandhi: "Among the many misdeeds of the British rule in India, history will look upon the
    act of depriving a whole nation of arms, as the blackest." ("Gandhi, an Autobiography," M.K. Gandhi,
    446)

    Sigmund Freud: "A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity."
    ("General Introduction to Psychoanalysis," S. Freud)

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  9. #549
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patria Antiqua View Post
    As written, the Second Amendment was clearly intended for militias. I wish we could just abrogate the amendment entirely and put an end to the ridiculous cult of firearms in this country.
    this is a fiction that the gun hating left made up in order to justify racist and bigoted laws aimed at blacks, jews and "papists"

    I wish I could rid this country of the anti constitutional nonsense that permeates the minds of so many lefties and more than a few right wingers



  10. #550
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You know, I've been thinking about it, and Scalia and the gun-rights advocates who are proposing this pseudo-history for the second amendment are right about one thing. The second amendment is an individual right, not a collective one. But unfortunately for them, this doesn't really help to bolster the pro-gun agenda when you also considered the text of the second amendment itself. The fact that it is a conditional sentence, and the fact that the phrase "keep and bear arms" is a legal term of art referring to military service, have both been demonstrated repeatedly by me in this thread.

    Thus the right in the second amendment is an individual one, but only insofar as it its the right of the individuals who make up the people to be represented by the militia, and to take part in it as citizens. But that is contingent on the militia's being necessary for the security of the free state, and it is also contingent on the constraints of a well-regulated militia. The militia may lawfully constrain the individual use of weapons and even their ownership. Though the federal government may not infringe on gun ownership rights of the individual, the state government and the militia itself certainly could, and this is how the founders envisioned it and wrote it. This is the original intent.

    So why fight it? Clearly gun ownership is more important to the pro-gun advocates than actual historicity. I doubt that any historical consensus could sway the opinion of Scalia. As it should be that way. Gun rights are fundamental. But they shouldn't be placed on an insecure foundation of bad history. Because then it is opening it up to being undermined by people who might come along later and want to undermine gun ownership rights. They'll have a much easier time with it, since history will be on their side. A future justice who over rules Heller in fifty years may make an off-hand comment like, "Scalia's reasoning is sound, but considering on what we know of history now, Heller ought to be overturned based on Scalia's own logic." And he'd be right! Doesn't that worry you?

    It should.
    where does the militia get the power to abrogate an individual's right to keep and bear arms.

    sorry this is another bit of specious nonsense that has no factual basis



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