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Thread: 2nd amendment rights.

  1. #531
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    It also shows his gross misunderstanding of what a militia IS. The militia is about the people in it, not the weapons. No militia commander would ever seek to "collect weapons," he would muster the MEN who HAVE the weapons. THAT is the militia, not their weapons. There would never be a shortage of weapons because each man IN the militia BRINGS HIS OWN.

    This goes back to the Anglo-Saxon fyrds, for crying out loud. That's the whole point.

    And such is the whole thing about "the security of a FREE state." The citizen-soldier. The bulwark against tyranny because such men would not turn their own arms against themselves, their families, their homes, their neighbors. Holding all the weapons in common would make this impossible.

    Posner is either woefully ignorant of this, or it's simply egregious lying.
    I was actually leaning towards intentional misinterpretation.
    Education.

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  2. #532
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    I was actually leaning towards intentional misinterpretation.
    Hard to say. Posner wouldn't be the first smart guy to totally pooch this stuff simply because he didn't do any research. His entire take sounds like something he wrote off the cuff from stuff he's always heard but never really researched, and his complete lack of citations certainly doesn't do much to fend off that idea.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  3. #533
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    There is no AND after state, only a comma, and a comma simply means a pause in a paragraph, proving that you flunked your 5th grad exam.

    Here, read it again. Change the comma to AND, and you'll see what I mean.

    Amendment II
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

    Of course the right for people to bear arms means nothing to me as a practice, the trend is already in place, can't be stopped, and compared with all the other deaths, the ratio of murders with guns isn't all that imposing, but I do try to follow the punctuation rules.


    Richard
    Sure. You change the comma to "and" and you create a sentence which makes no sense and reads like something a third-grader would write.

    So stick to this silly argument if you like, but repeating it doesn't make it less silly.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  4. #534
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Hard to say. Posner wouldn't be the first smart guy to totally pooch this stuff simply because he didn't do any research. His entire take sounds like something he wrote off the cuff from stuff he's always heard but never really researched, and his complete lack of citations certainly doesn't do much to fend off that idea.
    Hell, that sounds like many of my posts - the ones I don't really care much about.

    I usually mention "I think", or "my understanding is", however.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  5. #535
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Guy, your capacity to completely and resolutely ignore what the Founders said about the 2A and the right of the people to arms, in favor of this Judge Posner instead of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, George Mason, and others who were involving in writing the amendment and forming the early government, is..... well, let's just say, quite remarkable.
    Ok, you've got a fair point Goshin. If my view is correct, then I ought to have prominent founders who support that view, or at least can be read consistently with it. I have demonstrated that the quotations you have provided are not inconsistent with my view, but I have yet to provide any of my own. So, here is Delaware Founding Father Tench Coxe's commentary on the purpose of the second amendment:

    Quote Originally Posted by Tench Coxe
    As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.
    As Coxe explains, it is the purpose of the second amendment to defend the country from tyranny, not to shoot clay pigeons, and he even relates it to the term of art "keep and bear arms." This is a military context only, not anything less or more. Clearly the way Mr. Coxe understands it, the scope and import of the second amendment is married to the militia; a personal gun ownership right for hunting and sport is not even given consideration. This is the most pointed quotation from a Founder with reference to our debate yet posted, and it is in my favor. QED.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 11-19-10 at 07:49 PM.

  6. #536
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Ok, you've got a fair point Goshin. If my view is correct, then I ought to have prominent founders who support that view, or at least can be read consistently with it. I have demonstrated that the quotations you have provided are not inconsistent with my view, but I have yet to provide any of my own. So, here is Delaware Founding Father Tench Coxe's commentary on the purpose of the second amendment:



    As Coxe explains, it is the purpose of the second amendment to defend the country from tyranny, not to shoot clay pigeons, and he even relates it to the term of art "keep and bear arms." This is a military context only, not anything less or more. Clearly the way Mr. Coxe understands it, the scope and import of the second amendment is married to the militia; a personal gun ownership right for hunting and sport is not even given consideration. This is the most pointed quotation from a Founder with reference to our debate yet posted, and it is in my favor. QED.
    Clearly you are blind.

    I quote your quote back at you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tench Coxe
    As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.
    I helpfully bolded and italicized the section that jumped out at me.

    That he prefaces it with the REASONS for such, has no bearing on his conclusion.

    Namely, “the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms.”

    In all seriousness, it doesn’t get much clearer than that.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  7. #537
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    In all seriousness, it doesn’t get much clearer than that.
    It's not as clear as you seem to think it is. We've already discussed the fact that "keep and bear arms" is a term of art. Remember that when you read the bolded sentence. Tench Coxe is a highly sophisticated writer. He is aware of this nuance. Thus is basically reads: the people are confirmed in the right to use their private arms in the militia.

  8. #538
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    We've already discussed the fact that "keep and bear arms" is a term of art.
    Which you've demonstrated repeatedly you thoroughly fail to grasp, sure.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  9. #539
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    It's not as clear as you seem to think it is. We've already discussed the fact that "keep and bear arms" is a term of art. Remember that when you read the bolded sentence. Tench Coxe is a highly sophisticated writer. He is aware of this nuance. Thus is basically reads: the people are confirmed in the right to use their private arms in the militia.
    Back to that again, are we?

    You have yet to prove to me that your interpretation of what that phrase meant during that time period is correct.

    A quote, without links, from a historian, again who provides no evidence, is not proof.

    Further, you have no proof that the writers of the 2nd, or Tench Coxe, used that phrase with that specific "term of art" in mind.

    One would think that if, indeed, "keep and bear" was a "term of art" (or whatever they called it then), then someone would have defined it somewhere - and that said definition could be located, documented, and presented to prove your point.

    And lastly, how in HELL could people "use their private arms in the militia" if they didn't have any god damned private arms!!!
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  10. #540
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    You have yet to prove to me that your interpretation of what that phrase meant during that time period is correct.

    A quote, without links, from a historian, again who provides no evidence, is not proof.
    If Mr. Tushnet couldn't convince you how can I? The burden of proof is on your to refute his position, and I haven't seen that from you.

    As for providing you links, I'm giving you citations, that is the best I can do. Most of my research is from books. Sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    Further, you have no proof that the writers of the 2nd, or Tench Coxe, used that phrase with that specific "term of art" in mind.
    Like I said, my quotation from Tushnet is the proof. But you don't have to take his word for it, just do a little research yourself. Any historian of the era will have arrived at a similar conclusion.

    You're the one who is reaching with this false history you cling to, real history is low hanging fruit by comparison. You want me to write up a bibliography for you so you can see what I mean?

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