View Poll Results: Are restrictions on the purchase/sale of firearms constitutional?

Voters
82. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    31 37.80%
  • No

    43 52.44%
  • Other

    8 9.76%
Page 53 of 65 FirstFirst ... 343515253545563 ... LastLast
Results 521 to 530 of 647

Thread: 2nd amendment rights.

  1. #521
    Sage
    Guy Incognito's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last Seen
    12-02-17 @ 07:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    11,216

    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    simple then, anyone who belongs to the state militia (aka national guard) gets to keep and bear all the arms they wish.

    being such a person, I will keep my assault rifle and bear it as I walk down main street.
    That sounds reasonable, unless there is a law that prevents you from doing so. Sometimes there is, some times there isn't. You couldn't just carry a gun anywhere in the time of the founders you know.

  2. #522
    Farts in Elevators
    OscarB63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Alabama
    Last Seen
    09-06-14 @ 07:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,526

    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    You couldn't just carry a gun anywhere in the time of the founders you know.
    um, yeah...you could
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  3. #523
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:12 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,580

    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    Note that there's a comma after state, not an AND, clearly connecting people's right to bear arms with the militia, exactly what the framers intended.
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Exceedingly well put.
    I cannot even begin to tell you how stupid this argument is. Anyone who took 5th grade English would be able to tell you why.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  4. #524
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:12 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,580

    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    simple then, anyone who belongs to the state militia (aka national guard) gets to keep and bear all the arms they wish.
    The national guard isn't the militia, and every able-bodied male aged 17 to 45 is a member of the militia. As well as female officers of the national guard.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  5. #525
    Farts in Elevators
    OscarB63's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Alabama
    Last Seen
    09-06-14 @ 07:26 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    26,526

    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    The national guard isn't the militia, and every able-bodied male aged 17 to 45 is a member of the militia. As well as female officers of the national guard.
    I hope you realize I was being facetious?
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

    An appeaser is one who feeds a crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.

  6. #526
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:12 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,580

    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by OscarB63 View Post
    I hope you realize I was being facetious?
    Just going for clarity.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  7. #527
    Sporadic insanity normal.


    The Mark's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Last Seen
    12-13-17 @ 11:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    19,736

    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Exactly, this is not my own theory but based on the analysis of some prominent historians and legal scholars.

    As to the question of what "keep and bear" means, I myself used to think just the way you did. But you cannot read modern definitions into it; it is actually a legal term of art with a precise meaning:
    Quote Originally Posted by Historian Mark Tushnet
    When used separately in the eighteenth century, 'keep' and 'bear' had their ordinary meanings -you could keep a weapon in your house, and then you'd bear it outside. When used together, though, the meaning is more restricted. The evidence is overwhelming that 'keep and bear' was a technical phrase whose terms traveled together, like 'cease and desist' or 'hue and cry.' 'Keep and bear' referred to weapons in connection with military uses, even when the terms used separately might refer to hunting or other activities.
    Assuming that this historian is correct, I see two possibilities here:

    1. That the writers of the 2nd Amendment used the “technical phrase” “keep and bear” intentionally, with the purpose of directly connecting the possession and use of arms to militia service.
    2. That the writers of the 2nd Amendment inadvertently used the phrase “keep and bear”, and that they intended their meaning to be the “used separately” version your quote mentions…


    Additionally, I don’t think it matters which – in either case, I see nothing that precludes an individual right to bear arms.

    Unless there are specific connotation to that “term of art” phrase “keep and bear” that do so.

    Do you have an accurate historical definition of this “term of art” phrase that you could provide?

    Additionally, I note that the historian does not refer to the phrase as a “term of art” (as in, specific meaning in specific context, if my understanding is correct), but rather as a “technical phrase”. Are the definitions of the two definitions identical (aside from the actual name)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    As to the question of whether the original intent was to create an individual right or a right tied to the militia, Judge Posner, one of the most respected conservative judges of our time, has this to say:
    Problem is, he makes little sense, at least in the context of the quote you provided.
    First, there’s this bit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Richard Posner
    The text of the amendment, whether viewed alone or in light of the concerns that actuated its adoption, creates no right to the private possession of guns for hunting or other sport, or for the defense of person or property.
    This appears to me as an unsupported opinion, and further, one that I disagree with.

    It cites no evidence whatsoever.

    Then there’s the second part:
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Richard Posner
    It is doubtful that the amendment could even be thought to require that members of state militias be allowed to keep weapons in their homes, since that would reduce the militias' effectiveness. Suppose part of a state's militia was engaged in combat and needed additional weaponry. Would the militia's commander have to collect the weapons from the homes of militiamen who had not been mobilized, as opposed to obtaining them from a storage facility? Since the purpose of the Second Amendment, judging from its language and background, was to assure the effectiveness of state militias, an interpretation that undermined their effectiveness by preventing states from making efficient arrangements for the storage and distribution of military weapons would not make sense.
    This part is just gibberish, not to mention dumb.

    His analysis of the tactical/strategic situation is flawed.

    Far better would be for each individual militia member to have a personal weapon they keep at home, and for additional weapons to be stored in a central location, if available.

    But if the numbers of weapons are limited, the personal weapons kept at home are a far better option.

    In the event of a surprise attack, such as a raiding party of some sort, militia members would have their weapons at hand, rather than having to commute to a central location to acquire them. Further, militia members who lived near each other would thus have defenses ready at hand if said surprise attack was in their area.

    In situations I can imagine where a central storage location would help, the militia members would be highly likely (assuming they had any kind of intelligence system whatsoever) to have been warned of the impending attack ahead of time, thus allowing them to assemble in a central location themselves.
    Education.

    Sometimes I think we're alone. Sometimes I think we're not. In either case, the thought is staggering. ~ R. Buckminster Fuller

  8. #528
    Global Moderator
    The Hammer of Chaos
    Goshin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Dixie
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    44,176

    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Guy, your capacity to completely and resolutely ignore what the Founders said about the 2A and the right of the people to arms, in favor of this Judge Posner instead of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Samuel Adams, George Mason, and others who were involving in writing the amendment and forming the early government, is..... well, let's just say, quite remarkable.

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

  9. #529
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 06:12 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,580

    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Mark View Post
    His analysis of the tactical/strategic situation is flawed.
    It also shows his gross misunderstanding of what a militia IS. The militia is about the people in it, not the weapons. No militia commander would ever seek to "collect weapons," he would muster the MEN who HAVE the weapons. THAT is the militia, not their weapons. There would neve be a shortage of weapons because each man IN the militia BRINGS HIS OWN.

    This goes back to the Anglo-Saxon fyrds, for crying out loud. That's the whole point.

    And such is the whole thing about "the security of a FREE state." The citizen-soldier. The bulwark against tyranny because such men would not turn their own arms against themselves, their families, their homes, their neighbors. Holding all the weapons in common would make this impossible.

    Posner is either woefully ignorant of this, or it's simply egregious lying.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  10. #530
    Professor

    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Grand Junction, CO 81506
    Last Seen
    05-30-11 @ 07:02 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    2,236

    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    I cannot even begin to tell you how stupid this argument is. Anyone who took 5th grade English would be able to tell you why.
    There is no AND after state, only a comma, and a comma simply means a pause in a paragraph, proving that you flunked your 5th grad exam.

    Here, read it again. Change the comma to AND, and you'll see what I mean.

    Amendment II
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

    Of course the right for people to bear arms means nothing to me as a practice, the trend is already in place, can't be stopped, and compared with all the other deaths, the ratio of murders with guns isn't all that imposing, but I do try to follow the punctuation rules.


    Richard

Page 53 of 65 FirstFirst ... 343515253545563 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •