View Poll Results: Are restrictions on the purchase/sale of firearms constitutional?

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    31 37.80%
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    43 52.44%
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Thread: 2nd amendment rights.

  1. #511
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patria Antiqua View Post
    As written, the Second Amendment was clearly intended for militias. I wish we could just abrogate the amendment entirely and put an end to the ridiculous cult of firearms in this country.
    First of all, there's a comma next to state, meaning that a well-regulated militia, AND the citizenry are entitled to the right to bear arms.

    Second of all, you'd love to get your hands on the Bill of Rights, wouldn't you? Forget the fact that it is probably our most sacred part of the constitution regarding the rights of the people, I have no doubt you'd love to take a permanent red marker and cross out everything YOU deem unnecessary.

  2. #512
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ElijahGalt View Post
    First of all, there's a comma next to state, meaning that a well-regulated militia, AND the citizenry are entitled to the right to bear arms.
    That is a wonderful point. In the version of the bill of rights sent out to the states, there is only one comma, the one after State. However, the original version has three commas, a comma after each gammatical clause of the sentence, and (coincidentally enough) a comma after the two pertinent legal terms of art: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

    This really lends support to the reading that ties the right to the militia, because it becomes even more clear how the sentence should be read. Although to be honest, it does put something of a whole in my argument that the sentence is a conditional. With three commas, it looks more like "being necessary to the security of a free state" simply describes a militia. Regardless, Posner's argument never rested on the sentence being a conditional, so he and I remain right about the larger issue of the right being tied to the militia.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 11-19-10 at 05:09 PM.

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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Patria Antiqua View Post
    As written, the Second Amendment was clearly intended for militias. I wish we could just abrogate the amendment entirely and put an end to the ridiculous cult of firearms in this country.
    I would say that the Second Amendment clearly states that the militia is a necessity for keeping a free State and because of that, the individual right of the People to keep and bear arms cannot be infringed upon.
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I would say that the Second Amendment clearly states that the militia is a necessity for keeping a free State and because of that, the individual right of the People to keep and bear arms cannot be infringed upon.
    so would anyone who has a rudimentary grasp of the english language.
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I would say that the Second Amendment clearly states that the militia is a necessity for keeping a free State and because of that, the individual right of the People to keep and bear arms cannot be infringed upon.
    I agree with that statement. Just don't make the mistake of reading the modern meaning of "keep and bear arms" into the second amendment. It is a term of art with a precise meaning related to military service.

  6. #516
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The state can regulate the citizenry - so long as it does not infringe on the right to arms.
    The point is that the citizenry need not have any connection to the militia for it to have the right to arms or enjoy the protections affordrd to it by the amendment.
    Nothing about what you said is in the 2nd amendment, so you decided to write your version... Enterprising but misleading. Here, maybe you should read it again.

    Amendment II
    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

    Note that there's a comma after state, not an AND, clearly connecting people's right to bear arms with the militia, exactly what the framers intended.

    ricksfolly

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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    Note that there's a comma after state, not an AND, clearly connecting people's right to bear arms with the militia, exactly what the framers intended.

    ricksfolly
    Exceedingly well put.

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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I agree with that statement. Just don't make the mistake of reading the modern meaning of "keep and bear arms" into the second amendment. It is a term of art with a precise meaning related to military service.
    I think it should apply to military weaponry. One of the necessities to keeping a free State is the ability of the People to control the government itself. Since all government tends towards tyranny over time, it is necessary for the People to police and control the government to keep it within perscribed bounds. If it escapes those bounds and acts too grievously against our rights and liberties for too long, it is the right and duty of the people to expunge that government and construct for themselves a government which better adheres to their rights.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    simple then, anyone who belongs to the state militia (aka national guard) gets to keep and bear all the arms they wish.

    being such a person, I will keep my assault rifle and bear it as I walk down main street.
    The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I think it should apply to military weaponry. One of the necessities to keeping a free State is the ability of the People to control the government itself. Since all government tends towards tyranny over time, it is necessary for the People to police and control the government to keep it within perscribed bounds. If it escapes those bounds and acts too grievously against our rights and liberties for too long, it is the right and duty of the people to expunge that government and construct for themselves a government which better adheres to their rights.
    That's a great point! It definitely cuts both ways. The right is tied to militia service on its original meaning, so this applies to military weaponry beyond simply firearms. There is really no honest reading of the amendment otherwise. People have tried to argue that different categories such as "ordinance" exist, but that is just bunk.

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