View Poll Results: Are restrictions on the purchase/sale of firearms constitutional?

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  • Yes

    31 37.80%
  • No

    43 52.44%
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    8 9.76%
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Thread: 2nd amendment rights.

  1. #241
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    The original amendment clearly states, "Guns are only legal for a well regulated state militia..."
    Except that the text doesnt say anything of the kind.

    Spin, spin, spin, little NRA spiders, but you can't convince me, or other....
    ...partisan bigots. We know.

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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by molten_dragon View Post
    The short version is, arguments for gun control should be debated on their merits, and not simply sidestepped by stating 'it's unconstitutional' and nothing else.
    Except that the right to arms is a fundamental right, and so unless its 'utility' rises to the level of a compelling state interest, how "good" the idea might be isnt meaningful as the Constitution doesnt allow it. You cannot simply dismiss that.

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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I never said it protected a "collective" right, but rather it protects an individual right to keep and bear arms that is contingent on militia service. This isn't just something I made up, it's well understood among legal scholars, here is an excellent argument by Richard Posner, a legal scholar of the first order that all the standard model advocates around here seem to be very adept at ignoring.

    Again, I repeat the request, find me one historian who supports the standard model. If it was good history, there would be plenty. But it's a fiction made by and for pro-gun legal scholars and bears no resemblance to actual history. As I've argued in other threads, there is a a good historical case that the second protects a right to keep and bear arms (a term of art that is literally the same as saying "militia service"), but there is nothing in the text or in its history that would extend that right to the use of those arms for, say, hunting.



    Should we have a right to own guns? Yes. But that is not what the founders wanted. But hey, we got rid of slavery and allow women to vote, and that isn't what the founders wanted either. Society progresses. But don't relieve yourself on my head and tell me it's raining. The founders didn't envision a fundamental right to gun ownership, they envisioned a right to militia service, period.



    :


    What the Founders of the US said about guns:
    Thomas Jefferson: "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms...disarm only those who are neither
    inclined or determined to commit crimes. Such laws only make things worse for the assaulted and
    better for the assassins; they serve to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man
    may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." (1764 Letter and speech from T.
    Jefferson quoting with approval an essay by Cesare Beccari)

    John Adams: "Arms in the hands of citizens may be used at individual discretion in private self
    defense
    ." (A defense of the Constitution of the US)

    George Washington: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the
    people's liberty teeth (and) keystone... the rifle and the pistol are equally indispensable... more than
    99% of them [guns] by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very
    atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference [crime]. When firearms go, all goes,
    we need them every hour."
    (Address to 1st session of Congress)

    George Mason: "To disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them." (3 Elliot,
    Debates at 380)

    Noah Webster: "Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed, as they are in
    almost every country in Europe." (1787, Pamphlets on the Constitution of the US)

    George Washington: "A free people ought to be armed." (Jan 14 1790, Boston Independent
    Chronicle.)

    Thomas Jefferson: "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." (T. Jefferson papers,
    334, C.J. Boyd, Ed. 1950)

    James Madison: "Americans have the right and advantage of being armed, unlike the people of
    other countries, whose people are afraid to trust them with arms." (Federalist Paper #46)
    On what is the militia:

    George Mason: "I ask you sir, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people." (Elliott,
    Debates, 425-426)

    Richard Henry Lee: "A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves...and
    include all men capable of bearing arms
    ." (Additional letters from the Federal Farmer, at 169, 1788)

    James Madison: "A WELL REGULATED militia, composed of the people, trained to arms, is the
    best and most natural defense of a free country." (1st Annals of Congress, at 434, June 8th 1789,
    emphasis added.

    IMPORTANT NOTE: Back in the 18th century, a "regular" army meant an army that had
    standard military equipment. So a "well regulated" army was simply one that was "well equipped." It
    does NOT refer to a professional army. The 17th century folks used the term "STANDING Army"
    to describe a professional army. THEREFORE, "a well regulated militia" only means a well equipped
    militia. It does not imply the modern meaning of "regulated," which means controlled or administered
    by some superior entity. Federal control over the militia comes from other parts of the Constitution,
    but not from the second amendment.

    Patrick Henry: "The people have a right to keep and bear arms." (Elliott, Debates at 185)

    Alexander Hamilton: "...that standing army can never be formidable (threatening) to the liberties
    of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in the use of arms."
    (Federalist Paper #29)

    "Little more can be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed
    and equipped
    ." (Id) {responding to the claim that the militia itself could threaten liberty}" There is
    something so far-fetched, and so extravagant in the idea of danger of liberty from the militia that one
    is at a loss whether to treat it with gravity or raillery (mockery). (Id)
    FOUNDING FATHERS INTENT BEHIND THE CONSTITUTION:

    Samual Adams: "The Constitution shall never be construed to prevent the people of the United
    States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms
    ." (Convention of the Commonwealth
    of Mass., 86-87, date still being sought)

    Noah Webster: "Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority...the
    Constitution was made to guard against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages
    who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean
    to be masters." (Source still being sought)

    Thomas Jefferson: "On every occasion...[of Constitutional interpretation] let us carry ourselves
    back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates,
    and instead of trying [to force] what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it,
    [instead let us] conform to the probable one in which it was passed." (June 12 1823, Letter to
    William Johnson)

    Fiddling While Rome Burns
    ISIS: Carthago Delenda Est
    "I used to roll the dice; see the fear in my enemies' eyes... listen as the crowd would sing, 'now the old king is dead, Long Live the King.'.."

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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    What the Founders of the US said about guns:
    But.... Thats not what Posner says!
    It doesnt matter that he doesnt have any original source material to show that the founders didn't envision a fundamental right to gun ownership, they envisioned a right to militia service, period - Posner says so!!

  5. #245
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    I also don't remember God coming down from Heaven and declaring Posner an irrefutable source, especially when writing unsourced editorials in a liberal magazine.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    The founding fathers,

    The US Constitution,

    SCOTUS

    US Code


    These are all things that disagree with you.


    What is a "street gun" and can you, point to any evidence of your hoplophobic claim?
    ..

    You and the others seem to have blind spots when you read certain parts of the English language...

    Read the second amendment again, this time without preconditioned bias...

    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed...

    Maybe it would be beneficial for the blind spotees if the first part was officially deleted to simply read,

    "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

    ricksfolly

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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    ..

    You and the others seem to have blind spots when you read certain parts of the English language...

    Read the second amendment again, this time without preconditioned bias...

    A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed...

    Maybe it would be beneficial for the blind spotees if the first part was officially deleted to simply read,

    "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed"

    ricksfolly
    Here ya go.

    http://www.debatepolitics.com/polls/...post1059103955
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  8. #248
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ricksfolly View Post
    ..

    You and the others seem to have blind spots when you read certain parts of the English language...

    Read the second amendment again, this time without preconditioned bias...
    Funny thing is, if liberals such as yourself read the 2nd like you do the rest of the constitution, there would be an entitlement program set up to tax the rich to provde guns for people that cannot afford them.
    Precnditioned bias? Not from -this- side.
    Last edited by Goobieman; 11-16-10 at 05:55 PM.

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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Funny thing is, if livberals such as yourself read the 2nd like you do the rest of the constitution, therw would be an entitlement program set up to tax the rich to provde guns for people that cannot afford them.Precnditioned bias? Not from -this- side.



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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    The right to arms is a fundamental right
    You could make that case for the hunter who needs to shoot game to feed his family, but definitely not for the sport in a country that is supposed to be civilized.

    ricksfolly

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