View Poll Results: Are restrictions on the purchase/sale of firearms constitutional?

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Thread: 2nd amendment rights.

  1. #151
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    I never said it protected a "collective" right, but rather it protects an individual right to keep and bear arms that is contingent on militia service. This isn't just something I made up, it's well understood among legal scholars, here is an excellent argument by Richard Posner, a legal scholar of the first order that all the standard model advocates around here seem to be very adept at ignoring.
    Mostly because he doesn't even mention the Standard Model in that piece; his beef is with "originalism" in general. It would help to understand the Standard Model in order to know this, of course.


    Again, I repeat the request, find me one historian who supports the standard model.
    Joyce Lee Malcolm.


    If it was good history, there would be plenty.
    Given that the Standard Model is entirely a work of legal research concerning interpreting law, this argument is just . . . stupid. Indeed, it is like demanding that dentists weigh in on cancer research. Even for mouth cancer, that's laughable on its face.
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  2. #152
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    "Wanted"...? By whom?

    "Beneficial infringement"?
    The right to arms is a fundamental right. As such, potential infringements upon it are put to a test of strict scrutiny - where, among other things, those who wish to limit the right must show that there isa "compelling state interest" in doing so -- in other words it has to be shown that the restriction in question is so necessary that the state cannot function without it.
    It is impossible to make that case for any of the things you mentioned.
    There are plenty of restrictions that don't have to be as strict as you mentioned to be allowed. As long as they are compelling to a point that their benefits outweigh their costs, the infringement is allowed. Perhaps the most basic, and reasonable, is a background check that restricts convicted felons from being able to buy guns. The way I see it, if you commit a crime of that magnitude, you forfeit this right. I also don't mind licenses so we can keep track of who has a gun and who doesn't, and so its a little easier to tell if a weapon is illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    "I have commented on how I'd be more than happy to apply the arguments that allow for those Constitutional restrictions as a template for what restrictions would be allowable regarding the right to arms.
    The question is - would you?
    I'm fine with basic regulations. After reading through this thread especially, it is apparent that on a constitutional basis, everything up to a LMG should be up for public purchase, but again, I don't think we can give these weapons away willy-nilly, we need to keep a list of peopel who have these weapons, and make sure psychopaths and criminals don't get them.
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  3. #153
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Whatever happened to the "well regulated" part?
    “Real environmentalists live in cities, and they visit what's left of the wilderness as gently and respectfully as possible.” — Donna Moulton, letter to the editor, Tucson Weekly, published on August 23, 2001

  4. #154
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Whatever happened to the "well regulated" part?
    If Guy Incognito were actually conversant with the Standard Model, he would not have thanked this post. You, I'm not worried about.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  5. #155
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Whatever happened to the "well regulated" part?
    Indeed. That's the thing Penn and Teller leave out in that ubiquitous video. The second amendment is a conditional sentence: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The first clause, the militia clause, sets up the condition that must be met that cause the latter clause to be valid.

    Unless we are to assume that the Framers wrote the militia clause for no reason, it clearly sets up a condition. The logical corollary is that the second amendment has no force if "a well regulated militia is not necessary to the security of a free state." We don't need any militia today (the national guard is not an analogue), so based on the original intent the second amendment should be considered void. Thank God for activist Justices like Scalia.
    Last edited by Guy Incognito; 11-15-10 at 10:31 PM.

  6. #156
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Indeed. That's the thing Penn and Teller leave out in that ubiquitous video. The second amendment is a conditional sentence: A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. The first clause, the militia clause, sets up the condition that must be met that cause the latter clause to be valid.

    Unless we are to assume that the Framers wrote the militia clause for no reason, it clearly sets up a condition. The logical corollary is that the second amendment has no force if "a well regulated militia is not necessary to the security of a free state." We don't need any militia today (the national guard is not an analogue), so based on the original intent the second amendment should be considered void. Thank God for activist Justices like Scalia.



    even if you were right, who is the militia?


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  7. #157
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chappy View Post
    Whatever happened to the "well regulated" part?



    Just what do you think the term "well regulated" means?
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  8. #158
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    I don't think regulations on gun sales is unconstitutional. Making tanks and sniper rifles illegal for citizen position doesn't prevent someone from bearing arms. The Constitutional right is protected.
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  9. #159
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    Yet people of the day did own artillery, private citizens owned cannons and the like which they likewise brought to the nation's defense. None of this was supplied by a national or even local military.
    that does not have any impact on my comments though it is true



  10. #160
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by digsbe View Post
    I don't think regulations on gun sales is unconstitutional. Making tanks and sniper rifles illegal for citizen position doesn't prevent someone from bearing arms. The Constitutional right is protected.
    that is stupid to lump a "sniper rifle" with a tank. do you have any clue what a sniper rifle is? did you know that Carlos Hathcock-one of the most celebrated Marine Snipers in history killed close to 100 enemy with a Winchester Model 70 in 30-06

    do you know what one of the two most popular hunting rifles in the USA in the last 60 years is and what do you think is the most popular big game cartridge in the USA

    Winchester 70 (along with the similar Remington 700) and 30-06

    Do you know that GSgt Hathcock won the national target championship with that same set up?



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