View Poll Results: Are restrictions on the purchase/sale of firearms constitutional?

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  • Yes

    31 37.80%
  • No

    43 52.44%
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    8 9.76%
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Thread: 2nd amendment rights.

  1. #101
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by ender1 View Post
    Wouldnt that be interesting. Would it be fill in the blank or multiple choice test?
    I like fill in the blank-gets rid of lucky guessers



  2. #102
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    in the founders time there were three classes of weapons

    arms , artillery and ordnance. arms were just that-individual weapons that a regular infantryman or militia man would carry. swords, dirks, daggers, sabers, muskets, pistols and rifles. Artillery were mortars and cannon, and ordnance were bombs and rockets (remember "the rockets' red glare"?). the second dealt with the arms.

    now modern weaponry often blurs the lines. a submachine gun is an arm while a crew served heavy mg is more akin to artillery. a mortar is artillery but a grenade launcher attached to a marine's M4 carbine has elements of both. same with an RPG or a SA-7 surface to air missile though I note that normally grenade launchers and missiles are issued to squads or platoons to be carried by a selected soldier while the M16 or M4 rifles are issued to just about every combatant.

    so when we come to weapons capable of being deployed by one soldier even if issued at squad or platoon level (as opposed to every infantryman) there is a gray area when it comes to the second amendment. and I will concede that when it comes to RPGs, Strelas, or LAWS, MAWS or HAWS there is no quick answer.

    but right now, there are clear and obvious infringements on the second amendement by the federal government that do not require an examination of the RPG issue. for example, many weapons that civilian police departments use--ie weapons that the federal and state government have conceded are useful for self defense in urban environments and clearly protected by the second-that other civilians cannot buy without all sorts of red tape and in fact are often banned

    in 1986- in an attempt to derail the McClure-Volker firearms owner protection act (that would prevent Boston POlice from say arresting the Yale Skeet team as it travels through that city to the Eastern Collegiate clay target championships in Nashua NH), Dem Rep Hughes of NJ tried to poison the bill by attaching an amendment that many though was never properly ratified that banned the sale to civilians of all machine guns registered by their makers after May 19, 1986. this of course meant that the number of machine guns for non LEO ownership was cut off and the prices skyrocketed to the point that a gun police can buy for 900 dollars would cost me over 22,000 dollars

    BTW to say we would need heavy weapons to deal with a tyrannical government is specious. in such a scenario, the proper response is not to go head to head with the us military (assuming that the army would attack large numbers of civilians and say carpet bomb Columbus or Dallas). rather the response would be to target those who had caused the oppression and take them out. If someone can get within a half mile of someone they can kill them and if you are a dictator and 20 million pissed off american patriots want you dead, you are pretty much toast
    Only if they were rather stupid. If such a scenario took place, most officials in charge of the oppression of the people would improve security procedures to help prevent such killings. Armoured vehicles, restricted access etc. If they didnt take such precautions, I would be suprised they got into that position in the first place

    You only have to look at the Gaza strip, Iraq and Afganistan to see what personal weapons will do against a modern military. You need high exposives, RPGs, shaped charges, missiles etc to be able to present a real threat to a modern military. A large mass of people equiped with M16's or the like would be easily wiped out with artillery or airstrikes
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  3. #103
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Of course not-that is an infringement akin to saying you cannot vote until you can prove you know the positions of those who are running for office
    Is that a bad thing to want?
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  4. #104
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Reading through the arguments posted, it would appear that the language of the Constitution dictates no infringements on the second amendment, which is the subject of this thread. As Turtle pointed out, there is a grey area with some weapons, such as an underbarrel grenade launcher, or LMG's, etc. And as pointed out earlier, a completely strict interpretation of the Constitution can be somewhat useless with the complexities of our era, so it'd be fair to say some restrictions (back-ground checks, storage requirements, licenses) would be reasonable; however along with that, you should be able to get any "arm" (I'm going to fall back on Turtle's explanation of what an arm is).
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  5. #105
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    Only if they were rather stupid. If such a scenario took place, most officials in charge of the oppression of the people would improve security procedures to help prevent such killings. Armoured vehicles, restricted access etc. If they didnt take such precautions, I would be suprised they got into that position in the first place

    You only have to look at the Gaza strip, Iraq and Afganistan to see what personal weapons will do against a modern military. You need high exposives, RPGs, shaped charges, missiles etc to be able to present a real threat to a modern military. A large mass of people equiped with M16's or the like would be easily wiped out with artillery or airstrikes

    so my nephew who is now a major in the special forces is going to shell his hometown. and in those areas its very different

    there are 100 million at least armed americans. people in tanks have to get out of them. and many people were in the military. look what is happening in the ME with IEDs. and that is in an area where our shells and bombs aren't killing American civilians.

    and the bottom line is your understanding of civil insurrection or assassination has nothing to do with the second amendment issue.



  6. #106
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    so my nephew who is now a major in the special forces is going to shell his hometown. and in those areas its very different

    there are 100 million at least armed americans. people in tanks have to get out of them. and many people were in the military. look what is happening in the ME with IEDs. and that is in an area where our shells and bombs aren't killing American civilians.

    and the bottom line is your understanding of civil insurrection or assassination has nothing to do with the second amendment issue.
    If part of the 2 nd amendment is to protect the people from a tyranical government, which was in the quote of my initial post, the people would need more then just rifles to do the job. The founding fathers I doubt imagined tanks or RPG's let alone apache helicopters
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  7. #107
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    Of course not-that is an infringement akin to saying you cannot vote until you can prove you know the positions of those who are running for office
    Constitutional or not, that's not a bad idea.
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  8. #108
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    If part of the 2 nd amendment is to protect the people from a tyranical government, which was in the quote of my initial post, the people would need more then just rifles to do the job. The founding fathers I doubt imagined tanks or RPG's let alone apache helicopters
    nor did they imagine the internet or high speed printing presses but the genius of the first amendment applies to those unknown mediums just as the second amendment is not limited to the state of the art in individual weaponry circa 1790



  9. #109
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Tammerlain View Post
    If part of the 2 nd amendment is to protect the people from a tyranical government, which was in the quote of my initial post, the people would need more then just rifles to do the job. The founding fathers I doubt imagined tanks or RPG's let alone apache helicopters
    actual the purpose of the amendment was to make sure the people could protect the people-not an amendment



  10. #110
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    Re: 2nd amendment rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    You are mischaracterizing my position.
    I didn't mention you or your position at all. Stop taking everything personally.
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