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Social Security Fix

Your Identity and For/Against this SS Reform model


  • Total voters
    75
That is one of the most convoluted so called arguments I have ever seen.

This is not rocket science. Pop the cap bringing trillions into the system over the next seventy years and freeze benefits at the current levels.

Nothing in all that malarkey says otherwise.
 
:shrug: well apparently there is a solid constituency against it.



by the same measure, they get back later more than higher wage earners do. but yes, the payroll tax as it exists depresses employment and is the highest tax faced by the poorest of our workers.



well, that's not what makes it a tax. the law makes it a tax. anything else would have been unconstitutional. even at the height of the New Deal, FDR knew it was unConstitutional to force Americans to purchase insurance.



i've suggested they take 10% of their income to do so; we still are going to need that 5% to retain solvency in the here and now.



except that that General Fund is already running a $1.5 Trillion Deficit, and will be completely unable to absorb those extra costs.



that's what i'm trying to do here, yes.

That's the flaw in the privatization plan. The time to start allowing younger workers to start putting a portion of their SS dollars into an IRA, or similar plan, would have been when SS was generating more money than it cost. For some reason or other, no one suggested such a thing at that time. It could be that no one was willing to kill the cash cow. Now that the cash flow is the other way, the federal government can't afford it. Like lots of good ideas, it has to be paid for. The federal government seems to have forgotten that, but it still holds true.
 
That's the flaw in the privatization plan. The time to start allowing younger workers to start putting a portion of their SS dollars into an IRA, or similar plan, would have been when SS was generating more money than it cost. For some reason or other, no one suggested such a thing at that time. It could be that no one was willing to kill the cash cow. Now that the cash flow is the other way, the federal government can't afford it. Like lots of good ideas, it has to be paid for. The federal government seems to have forgotten that, but it still holds true.

i thinkby popping the cap while incentivizing the wealthy to pay, slowly raising the retirement age, tying the growth in benefits to inflation, and keeping a portion of those younger workers FICA taxes flowing in, we could avoid having to make demands of the size under discussion of the General Fund. recall that the workers most likely to jump ship will be younger, and therefore represent smaller incomes on which the system depends less.
 
That is one of the most convoluted so called arguments I have ever seen.

This is not rocket science. Pop the cap bringing trillions into the system over the next seventy years and freeze benefits at the current levels.

Nothing in all that malarkey says otherwise.

popping the cap is unlikely to bring those trillions unless you find a way to incentivize those making the higher incomes to pay it (as my plan does). otherwise you're just providing them incentive to pursue tax-avoidance measures by altering how they recieve income. as for the "freeze"; you realize that's a de facto cut at the rate of inflation?


and you've still yet to explain to me why - since we are fixing the system anyway - you aren't willing to help our working poor achieve financial independance.
 
The whole scheme should be to use the fact that people will die never seeing a penny of their contribution. So increase the age to 68. Change the definition of income to include all earnings. Get ridoif any limits to contribution and benefits. Plug any loopholes that create avoidance.

At the same time, switch to a tax system that charges anyone for using the infrastructure our grandparents built to sell their products and services. Have a belief that nobody could earn 30 million dollars in an afternoon without the infrastructure our grandparents built.
 
popping the cap is unlikely to bring those trillions unless you find a way to incentivize those making the higher incomes to pay it (as my plan does). otherwise you're just providing them incentive to pursue tax-avoidance measures by altering how they recieve income. as for the "freeze"; you realize that's a de facto cut at the rate of inflation?


and you've still yet to explain to me why - since we are fixing the system anyway - you aren't willing to help our working poor achieve financial independance.

1) We can freeze benefits plus the rate of inflation without much difficulty.
2) we can provide ample incentives for the rich to pay the increase resulting from popping the cap. Its called incarceration.
3) as to helping the poor and financial independence ---- that is not my fight at this point in time. But good luck with it.
 
1) We can freeze benefits plus the rate of inflation without much difficulty.

i hope you are correct, but it's going to take your side demonstrating the ability to avoid hysterical shrieking about seniors being thrown out into the snow, so let's say i'm not going to hold my breath

2) we can provide ample incentives for the rich to pay the increase resulting from popping the cap. Its called incarceration.

except of course that minimizing one's exposure to taxation is not illegal; else we'd have to arrest every schlub who deducted his mortgage interest.

3) as to helping the poor and financial independence ---- that is not my fight at this point in time

well at this point that's painfully obvious; though sad. and telling. though at least you're honest - you don't want to help the poor, you just want to grow government.
 
Must social security be "Constitutional"?
I am leery of the idea of having something that is social/government participating in the world of business.
Not that what you propose is without merit, this does require some very careful study..
And with the 401K, et al, we have a partial version of this..
How to save social sercuity.....
Since when did it require saving?
If more income is needed, simply extend the "cut off".....
The rich will not go for this....we have too many conservatives in government, representing the wealthy.
No vote, as usual, I am independent.

Could someone please translate this for me?
 
conservatives are bad = their ideas are bad = the market is bad. tax the rich.

:) hope that helped.
 
from cp will on my proposal to pop the cap on FICA contributions and freeze benefits at the current level plus inflation

i hope you are correct, but it's going to take your side demonstrating the ability to avoid hysterical shrieking about seniors being thrown out into the snow, so let's say i'm not going to hold my breath

I believe - based on talking to many other people "on my side" about this that they would be more than happy with a system which did just that. Protecting SS and keeping the benefits to current levels plus inflation would not at all eb objectionable and I have heard no real objections to it from AARP or other such groups. I am a member of AARP and get their publications and they are indeed supportive of this idea.

I mentioned this as a way to fight tax avoidance from the rich
2) we can provide ample incentives for the rich to pay the increase resulting from popping the cap. Its called incarceration.

and the reply from cpwill

except of course that minimizing one's exposure to taxation is not illegal; else we'd have to arrest every schlub who deducted his mortgage interest.

We have had this discussion before in other threads and we simply see it differently. I favor a tightening of the laws and increased enforcement of the laws with perhaps stiffer penalties - all to encourage proper payment of ones obligation. You have said that it is not so simple. Perhaps you are partially right and I am partially right. I do think there is room for improvement in the present system and ways can be found to collect the legal tax obligation and "encourage" everyone to properly fulfill their legal and civic obligation.

I said this about cpwill's ideas

3) as to helping the poor and financial independence ---- that is not my fight at this point in time

and his response

well at this point that's painfully obvious; though sad. and telling. though at least you're honest - you don't want to help the poor, you just want to grow government.

One can only do so much and one must limit their scope of activity. I do think there are things we can do to help the poor achieve a better financial position and that begins with education.I have no position of growing government or reducing government as an ideology, principle or hard and fast rule. I lean towards a more pragmatic and practical approach.
 
I believe - based on talking to many other people "on my side" about this that they would be more than happy with a system which did just that. Protecting SS and keeping the benefits to current levels plus inflation would not at all eb objectionable and I have heard no real objections to it from AARP or other such groups. I am a member of AARP and get their publications and they are indeed supportive of this idea.

given that that is likely going to end up happening (the freeze) anyway, that's good to hear. but it strikes me that it's too easy to demagogue because it is too easy to tie a Giant Scary Number Republicans Want To Cut X Trillion Dollars From Social Security etc. again, I'm not really willing to bet much on the ability of today's Democrats to walk away from something that easy, irrespective of whether or not it will keep us from bankruptcy.

We have had this discussion before in other threads and we simply see it differently. I favor a tightening of the laws and increased enforcement of the laws with perhaps stiffer penalties - all to encourage proper payment of ones obligation. You have said that it is not so simple. Perhaps you are partially right and I am partially right. I do think there is room for improvement in the present system and ways can be found to collect the legal tax obligation and "encourage" everyone to properly fulfill their legal and civic obligation.

the law at present is the law. the trick with income is that it can berecieved in a variety of ways at a variety of times - especially at the upper brackets - so as to avoid taxes. we're not talking about closing loopholes here, we're talking about closing off entire incomes. the payroll tax is just easy for higher income workers to avoid.

One can only do so much and one must limit their scope of activity

we are already undertaking this activity. i'm only suggesting that - since we are doing it anyway - that we do it in such a way that it actually benefits the poor rather than simply costing them.

I do think there are things we can do to help the poor achieve a better financial position and that begins with education.

well if that's the case then our best hope is a Presidency for Mitch Daniels followed by President Walker, both of whom appoint Michelle Rhee as their Secretary of Education.

I have no position of growing government or reducing government as an ideology, principle or hard and fast rule. I lean towards a more pragmatic and practical approach.

yeah, that's what progressives usually say. mind you, it's impossible...
 
if you will look at our collection over the past few years

wsj-tax-revenue-chart-ed-ah556b_ranso_20080519194014.gif


you will note that while tax rates varied wildly, revenue rates did not; generally holding steady at 18-19% of GDP, irrespective of the tax rate. people seek to avoid exposure to taxes, and the higher the tax rates, the greater their incentive to do so. on the margin you depress the activity that is taxed. within the range of GDP that is collected, lower taxes seem to push it higher, but rather than simply assuming a direct (rather than indirect through increased GDP) effect, we should note that the period of greatest tax rate variation is the period of greatest revenue rate stability, and the period of greatest revenue rate variability occured during a time that was marked by fairly stable tax rates.

Revenue, therefore, is mostly a function of GDP. if you want to increase revenue, take steps that would more rapidly increase GDP. if you want to depress revenue, take steps that would slow the growth (or reduce) GDP.

this isn't to say that tax cuts are or should be a one-stop-shop. I would argue at our current point we probably would gain more through tax code simplification. Currently we spend 330 Billion just complying with the Tax code; that's unconcionable. imagine the effect of just 2/3rds of that in savings every year; invested in the economy and compounded over time? reducing tax code complexity and the regulatory burden are two great non-tax methods of increasing GDP.


First, I challenged you to back up you assertion that raising taxes decreases tax revenue and you proceed to show how lowering taxes raises revenue. That is not the same thing.
Second, lowering the marginal tax rate is not the same thing as lowering taxes.
Third, tax revenue increases with growth in GDP. One can lower taxes and have increased taxes simply because GDP goes up
Fourth, tax revenues have increased largely from payroll taxes. Those taxes were not lowered, but in fact have a built in year over year increase because the maximum tax goes up each year. I will suggest that the increase in revenue from payroll taxes actually masks the effect of tax rate decreases on income tax revenue

Hence, total tax revenues can increase even when income tax revenue increases, even without income tax revenue going up, hence you didn't "solidly demonstrate" anything.
You showed two graphs of disparate information and implied a relationship but none is established.
 

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First, I challenged you to back up you assertion that raising taxes decreases tax revenue and you proceed to show how lowering taxes raises revenue.

no, i showed how higher taxes in the past had not produced higher revenue.

Second, lowering the marginal tax rate is not the same thing as lowering taxes.

lowering the tax rate is certainly not the same thing as decreasing revenues. that was part of the purpose of my post, yes.

Third, tax revenue increases with growth in GDP. One can lower taxes and have increased taxes simply because GDP goes up

bingo. the reverse, of course, is also true; you can hike tax rates and depress revenues because GDP does not go up.

Fourth, tax revenues have increased largely from payroll taxes.

more people are making more money? and this occured over the period of time when we lowered our top marginal tax rates? why perish the thought.

Those taxes were not lowered, but in fact have a built in year over year increase because the maximum tax goes up each year

not necessarily; it has remained consistent at $106,800 since 2009. and then it is usually adjusted with inflation, which seeks to keep it even in real dollars.

I will suggest that the increase in revenue from payroll taxes actually masks the effect of tax rate decreases on income tax revenue

yet your own chart seems to indicate that there has been no decrease in income tax. and certainly there hasn't been a decrease in income tax as a percent of GDP.

Federal-Personal-Income-Tax-Collections.JPG


1. The average percentage of GDP represented by U.S. federal personal income tax revenues from 1946 through 2006 is 8.0%. The percentage share of personal income tax revenues with respect to GDP is normally distributed, with a standard deviation of 0.8%. This defines the typical range for the personal income tax share of GDP of 7.2% to 8.8%.

2. Recessions (shown by the vertical red bands) often coincide with decreased revenue for the federal government from personal income taxes. This is exactly what we should expect to see, as the total level of income earned falls with employment levels during recessions.

3. There are unique circumstances that coincide with percentage shares greater than 8.8%...

4. Unique circumstances also apply to the one period in which the percentage share of personal income taxes dipped below the lower level of 7.2%...

5. Years in which tax rate cuts took effect (1964, 1970, 1971, 1982, 1987, 1988, 1991 and 2003) all saw government collections of personal income taxes dip initially, then begin to rise afterward, with the total of personal income tax collections always falling in the range between 7.2% and 8.8% of GDP.

This last phenomenon suggests that the distribution of taxable income shifts in accordance with changes in the tax rate structure of the income tax code to maintain a stable equilibrium with respect to overall GDP, albeit with a small lagging effect. This level of equilibrium is given by a level of personal income tax collections representing 8.0% of GDP, plus or minus 0.8%, which holds in the absence of unique economic and fiscal policy factors.

Basically, this means that as tax rates change, people shift their level of economic production to account for the change in the tax rate structure, and do so in a way that maintains this overall level of equilibrium...

We confirm that beginning in 1964, with the first of a series of income tax rate reductions, personal income tax collections have risen at a much faster pace than they did under the highly progressive income tax rate structure that existed from 1946 through 1963, even after adjusting for inflation.

We'll revisit this latter chart in the future, but for now, we'll observe that regardless of what it might hope to achieve from changing the schedule of tax rates, the government isn't going to get much more than 8.0% +/- 0.8% of the pie called GDP for the effort. The real question is whether it will be 7.2%-8.8% of a growing pie that incents people to be more productive or 7.2%-8.8% of a stagnant or shrinking pie that incents people to become really good at dodging personal income taxes, or just taking it easier....
 
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from cpwill

well if that's the case then our best hope is a Presidency for Mitch Daniels followed by President Walker, both of whom appoint Michelle Rhee as their Secretary of Education.

only if we once again legalize snake oil salesman going town to town from the back of a wagon.
 
from cpwill

only if we once again legalize snake oil salesman going town to town from the back of a wagon.

sure, we'll have to do that to make up for the Obama administrations' decision to paint cows purple and charge people 0.0037% of their income for entrance to the Washington Monument.


:confused: how in the world did what you just say have any relevance?
 
ran across an interesting piece comparing our current system to one which had already imposed something similar:


The Proof is in the Pension

I made a pilgrimage to Santiago seeking to resolve the Social Security debate with a simple question: What would Pablo Serra do?

I wanted to compare our pensions to see the results of an accidental experiment that began in 1961, when he and I were friends in second grade at a school in Chile. He remained in Chile and became the test subject; I returned to America as the control group.

By the time we finished college, both of our countries' pension systems were going broke. Chile responded by pioneering a system of private accounts in 1981. America rescued its traditional system in the early 1980's by cutting benefits and raising taxes, with the promise that the extra money would go into a trust to finance the baby boomers' retirement.

As it happened, our countries have required our employers to set aside roughly the same portion of our income, a little over 12 percent, which pays for disability insurance as well as the pension program. It also covers, in Pablo's case, the fees charged by the mutual-fund company managing his money...

After comparing our relative payments to our pension systems (since salaries are higher in America, I had contributed more), we extrapolated what would have happened if I'd put my money into Pablo's mutual fund instead of the Social Security trust fund. We came up with three projections for my old age, each one offering a pension that, like Social Security's, would be indexed to compensate for inflation:

(1) Retire in 10 years, at age 62, with an annual pension of $55,000. That would be more than triple the $18,000 I can expect from Social Security at that age.

(2) Retire at age 65 with an annual pension of $70,000. That would be almost triple the $25,000 pension promised by Social Security starting a year later, at age 66.

(3)Retire at age 65 with an annual pension of $53,000 and a one-time cash payment of $223,000....

The biggest problem in Chile is that many workers don't contribute regularly to their pensions because they're unemployed or working off the books. That's a common situation in the developing world, no matter what the pension system is. But if you contribute for at least 20 years, Chile guarantees you a minimum pension that, relative to the median salary, is actually more generous than the median Social Security check....

"I'm very happy with my account," he said to me after comparing our pensions. He was kind enough not to gloat. When I enviously suggested that he could expect not only a much heftier pension than mine, but also enough cash to buy himself a vacation home at the shore or in the country, he reassured me that it would pay for only a modest place.

I'm not sure how much consolation that is, but I'm trying to look at the bright side. Maybe my Social Security check will cover the airfare to visit him.​
 
Here is my proposal:

Allow workers to opt into a partially privatized system, where of their 7.65% FICA expenditures, 5% goes into a private TSP-style account; and the Employers match follow the same. the remaining 2.65% (or, when you count the match, 5.3%) will go straight into SS, but it will be revenue for which SS will never see a liability.

I have to question the numbers. Today SS gets 8.6% of your wages. DI gets 1.8%. And HI gets 2.9%. The total is 15.3%, currently 2% is in the payroll tax holiday. So your numbers are pushing money that is dedicated to Disability and Medicare into SS. How will you fund Disability and Medicare?

The 10.6% (the general taxpayers are paying the 2% for the holiday) is not covering existing benefits. If you reduce it to 2.65, you will have a substantial shortfall. While the Trust Fund will absorb the different it will not last.

I can point you to Crestmont Research that will tell you that for the investment cohort 1982-2010, the S&P dividend reinvested no taxes taken inflation adjusted return was less than 7%. What is the source on your returns?
 
I have to question the numbers. Today SS gets 8.6% of your wages. DI gets 1.8%. And HI gets 2.9%. The total is 15.3%, currently 2% is in the payroll tax holiday. So your numbers are pushing money that is dedicated to Disability and Medicare into SS. How will you fund Disability and Medicare?

Disability I haven't considered I'll admit - I assumed it came out of the same pile of money. Medicare expenditures I would push down by switching to a means-tested premium support model.

The 10.6% (the general taxpayers are paying the 2% for the holiday) is not covering existing benefits. If you reduce it to 2.65, you will have a substantial shortfall.

which is why we adjust the age upwards, switch COLA increases to match inflation rather than wage-growth, pop the cap, and consider introducing means-testing as necessary.

I can point you to Crestmont Research that will tell you that for the investment cohort 1982-2010, the S&P dividend reinvested no taxes taken inflation adjusted return was less than 7%. What is the source on your returns?

CAGR Annualized Return of the SP 500 from Jan 1 1982 through Dec 31 2010, adjusted for inflation, comes out to 8.15. Which would alter the numbers in the OP upwards - but the basic result (that private accounts give a level of fiscal security and financial independence to our lower income workers that Social Security currently does not) would remain if you dropped it to 7%.
 
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CAGR Annualized Return of the SP 500 from Jan 1 1982 through Dec 31 2010, adjusted for inflation, comes out to 8.15. Which would alter the numbers in the OP upwards - but the basic result (that private accounts give a level of fiscal security and financial independence to our lower income workers that Social Security currently does not) would remain if you dropped it to 7%.

I don't see the inflation adjustment. Here is the data from Crestmont, http://www.crestmontresearch.com/docs/Stock-Matrix-Tax-Exempt-Real3-11x17.pdf. They show that 1982 to the end of 2010 was a 7% return. This sheet also shows that as a cohort the 1982-2010 was the highest return for any co-hort for more than 100 years. Do you think it is fair to base your results on the absolute peak returns?
 
Disability I haven't considered I'll admit - I assumed it came out of the same pile of money. Medicare expenditures I would push down by switching to a means-tested premium support model. which is why we adjust the age upwards, switch COLA increases to match inflation rather than wage-growth, pop the cap, and consider introducing means-testing as necessary.

You asked for criticisms. I think you need more candor and more hard numbers. If you are doing to divert medicare funding that is a top-line change. I would like to see what numbers you think will enable you to pay benefits to existing retirees with a 2.65 SS tax. Without payroll taxes, the Trust Fund is gone in about 3 years.

You can't introduce means-testing. It was introduced in 1983, and affects up to 1/3rd of retirees. Social Security benefits are already means tested based on income. As I have said else where, increasing the cap is when you have debt in reality just shifts the cost of SS to the general tax payer. If you are going to raise taxes, the money should be used to control the debt. Debt is the problem here. At some point, and you can see it in this thread, the younger generation will be forced to choose between supporting the retirees and supporting the debt created by the retirees. Increasing the cap is essentially putting your 401K contribution on your child's credit card. (I would point you to your discussion on the other thread).

As a side note, you need to adjust your economic returns from equity investing for market cycles. Wages peak at market tops and trough a couple of months after market bottoms. 30% of my SS contributions occurred within 1 year of market tops. I was unemployed in 2002 and 2009 when I should have been buying. You can't apply a historical even dollar-weighted investment returns to a plan which calls for wage-weighted investments.

This doesn't even get into how you will let people invest their money. Do you plan to have a control on what people can invest in? If so, who is going to make that decision - overtime it will be a Barney Frank and a Chris Dodd. You should assume that every district will have a Solyndra that want into the index.

You asked for criticisms. Criticizing SS plans is what I do...

Even without seeing the number I can tell you that it seems like you are setting up the 45-54 year-olds who have paid the most for this system in a position to get the least. In general, our site says that any plan that ends Social Security has to do so on a shared-basis, one on which everyone including retirees absorbs some part of the cost.

Walk me through a 54 year-old who is due an annuity of 25K a year. Factor in the idea that labor participation rates are dropping in that age group. It is hard to find work for many of these people.
 
I don't see the inflation adjustment.

You will note that if you enter the dates "1982" and "2010", that you have an "adjust for inflation" box to check. that set of data will give you 8.15%

Here is the data from Crestmont, http://www.crestmontresearch.com/docs/Stock-Matrix-Tax-Exempt-Real3-11x17.pdf. They show that 1982 to the end of 2010 was a 7% return. This sheet also shows that as a cohort the 1982-2010 was the highest return for any co-hort for more than 100 years. Do you think it is fair to base your results on the absolute peak returns?

Do you think it is fair to claim that I gave a set of data that I didn't? I gave the 1982 through 2009, which was 7.98. However, (again, I repeat myself), if you lower the annualized return, the results remain the same - private accounts give a far superior results to our lower-income workers than social (in)security. Even in our worst-case scenario, which included a complete withdrawal in the trough of a last-minute 40% market meltdown, the benefit was more than twice what the recipients' SS benefit would be.
 
I think it's a great idea. Certainly, some minor modifications but in principle, I agree.

Here is my proposal:

Allow workers to opt into a partially privatized system, where of their 7.65% FICA expenditures, 5% goes into a private TSP-style account; and the Employers match follow the same. the remaining 2.65% (or, when you count the match, 5.3%) will go straight into SS, but it will be revenue for which SS will never see a liability. the cost for opting out is that part of your pay continues to go to pay for others, but the upside is that you get a combined total of 10% of your annual income going into a retirement account that belongs to you, and grows tax-free. Social Securities' revenues will instantly drop, but nowhere near as severely as their liabilities. To ensure solvency in the adjustment period (and to make it politically palatable); lift the cap. We can lift the cap on only the worker (and not the employer) if we want to encourage job-creation; or lift it on both if we need the revenue to ensure solvency, or if that's the only way to get the thing passed; here is room for compromise wiggling. Higher paid workers will see more of their money leave in the form of taxes, but those making less than $604,000 will get back even more in the form of ownership of personalized accounts (assuming the employer cap isn't lifted, and that's not figuring for the added benefit of those accounts growing tax-free), and so they will be willing to make the trade. Perhaps another compromise point would be to raise the cap to $604K. Poorer workers can either spend their lifetime building far more wealth than they ever would have seen under Social Security if they are younger, or keep the guaranteed program benefits if they are older.

ta-da! the American people and the Government are left better off.

how much better off?

welllll, let's do a quick example:

Joe graduates High School and goes to work, making 25,000 a year. Not anyone's idea of incredible pay, but there you are. Joe gets' a 2% raise every year to account for his increasing talent, experience, etc. The 10% of his income goes into a mix of funds that matches the S&P 500 Combined Annualized Growth average since 1982: 7.98% (after you account for inflation). If Joe retires nice and early at 62; his retirement fund will be worth $1,030,110, and if placed into an annuity / conservative account that generates a 5% annual return, his monthly benefit will be $4,292. That would be slightly less than his last monthly paycheck of $4,979; but still quite livable. If Joe works until he's 65, his monthly benefit will climb above his monthly income to $5,473; and if he decides (as most of us probably will) to delay retirement to 68, he's looking at a monthly retirement check of $6,966.

And remember, Joe isn't exactly one of society's higher paid workers.

But he also had the advantage of time. Let's say instead Joe went to two years of college, and got an associates before entering the workforce to earn that 25,000; and let's say that instead of 2%, Joe turns out not to learn new skills that well, and his annual raise above inflation is actually 0.5%. We're stacking the deck a little against ole Joe, but he still seems to come out okay; his monthly benefit at age 62 is $3,050; at age 65 it's $3,875; and at age 68 it's $4,915. It's worth noting that under this model, the most Joe ever made was $31,672 in a given year; and that his monthly retirement benefits at age 65 represents a $1,200 monthly pay increase over his monthly income. Even if Joe retires early at 62 he will have more in income off of his account than he would from working; and the longer he chooses to keep working, the greater, obviously, his return is.

AND ALL THIS WITHOUT COSTING OLE JOE A SINGLE RED CENT. since the money was cash he was losing to taxes in the first place, his take-home pay wasn't reduced one iota; but because we partially privatized social security, Low Income Worker Joe can retire a millionaire.

OR, if he didn't want the 'risk' of the marketplace, he could have chosen to stay with regular social (in)security. average monthly payout: about $1,100 dollars. or, roughly 1/3rd of what Joe made in our worse case scenario at age 65.


BUT WAIT!!! WHAT IF THE MARKET TANKS!!!

Markets recover. If the market tanks right as Joe was planning on retiring, he can work for an extra year while it rights itself, or simply choose to draw less from the account in order to leave more in there to ride the upswing. OR, if Joe makes the worst decision possible, at the worst time possible and withdraws all of his money while the market is at the low point on the trough (say, a 40% drop, similar to what we just saw), to purchase a 5% annuity... then his monthly income in our worse-case scenario at age 65 will still be more than twice what he could have expected from Social Security.





I am particularly interested in liberal critiques of this plan. Conservative ones (it leaves Social Security, which is unConstitutional, still in place, so on and so forth) I already know, but tend to discount them as beyond the politically palatable. It strikes me that this offers a little something for both sides of the economic aisle: for you Keynesians, the existence of a retirement fund growing tax-free will spur people to consume more and save less; for you Austrians, the existence of a steady flow of capital into the market irrespective of what it is doing will smooth out the business cycle, and create a massive interest group against easy money (people like few things less than watching their nest eggs dwindle thanks to inflation).
 
Alright so if we go back and look at annualized returns for a 18-65 year old working life for the entire US post-war experience and average up each cohort, your return comes out to 6.9855%

Using that return for Ole Joe of our OP fame, let's run the numbers:

With an annual 2% raise (which is roughly what current SS figures assume), Ole Joe's monthly benefit is $4,800. Roughly 4 times the current average monthly benefit from Social (in)Security, which, as a fairly standard worker, Standard Income Joe would get from the old system.

With an annual 0.5% raise (1/4th of what current SS figures assume) and two years of labor lost, Ole Joe's monthly benefit is $3,385. Or, roughly 3 times what the current average monthly benefit, which itself is higher than Low Income Joe's (Joe's maximum income is under $32,000 a year) benefit would have been.

With low annual raise of half a percent and two years of working lost, Low Income Joe faces a 40% utter market crash the year he retires and he foolishly makes the worst decision possible withdraws it all at the trough. Low Income Joe's benefit is still a little over twice what he would have gotten from Social (in)Security.

The lowest cohort was the 1962-2009 cohort, which saw an inflation adjusted annualized return of 4.92. Had Joe been in that cohort, his numbers would have been $2,654, $1,850, and $1,110 respectively.

In other words, you have to pick the lowest scoring cohort since WWII, keep Ole Joe under $32,000 for his entire working life, which features two years of unemployment, and then produce two back to back 2008-style market crashes just to produce enough economic damage for Low Income Joe's monthly benefit to match what Standard Income Joe would have seen from traditional Social Security.



The System Works. There is good reason why part of Chile's program is that if your private account ever drops low enough that it would not have made up for the loss of the public benefit the government covers the difference... and the government has yet to pay out a single peso.
 
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You I gave the 1982 through 2009, which was 7.98. However, (again, I repeat myself), if you lower the annualized return, the results remain the same - private accounts give a far superior results to our lower-income workers than social (in)security. Even in our worst-case scenario, which included a complete withdrawal in the trough of a last-minute 40% market meltdown, the benefit was more than twice what the recipients' SS benefit would be.

Based on what? Low wage workers can receive as much as 9% real returns according to the Social Security Administration. That excludes the EITC tax credits that they receive today to compensate them for paying payroll taxes. This is part of the problem. Social Security is highly progressive. I simply don't believe that a low-wage worker selling at the trough had a benefit anything close to what SS provides. What are the details here?
 
The lowest cohort was the 1962-2009 cohort, which saw an inflation adjusted annualized return of 4.92. Had Joe been in that cohort, his numbers would have been $2,654, $1,850, and $1,110 respectively.

You are comparing apples and oranges. You are pulling money from Disabilty and Medicare into the privatized numbers. You would need to re-run them with the 10.6% payroll tax rather than 15.3% to give you apple to apple numbers.

You are also assuming that there is some mix of other cuts which enables you to get past legacy costs with 2.65% of payroll. If you raise the cap, it comes with higher public debt. This creates a left pocket/right pocket problem. Sure your left pocket has more money, but the right pocket has more debt. All you are pointing to is the left pocket. To the extent that your plan creates public debt - and it does if you divert tax revenue away from deficit control to payroll taxes in the form of raising the taxable wage base - you are claiming victory on less than a full picture.
 
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