View Poll Results: Your Identity and For/Against this SS Reform model

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  • Socialist and Against

    10 10.99%
  • Socialist and For

    1 1.10%
  • Democrat and Against

    21 23.08%
  • Democrat and For

    6 6.59%
  • Republican and Against

    2 2.20%
  • Republican and For

    22 24.18%
  • Libertarian and Against

    9 9.89%
  • Liberarian and For

    9 9.89%
  • I am for it, but with a particular modification (explain)

    11 12.09%
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Thread: Social Security Fix

  1. #261
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    Re: Social Security Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Also, cpwill, I believe this aspect of investing in the stock market is rarely discussed. While I agree the prospects of such a system are better as far as return, overall health of the economy, etc, You have to figure in the amount of corruption, and cronyism that will arise out of the government investing practically trillions into the stock market. You think companies lobbying for government money is bad now, just wait until the government puts other peoples money up for grabs in the stock market. Basically, you need a pretty objective way for the government to do this type of investing to keep it from becoming a free for all.

    Here's an idea.

    Since the government has demonstrated the absolute limit of its competence, trustworthiness, and honesty with it's handling the unconstitutional social security plan, the best plan to move forward is to tell the government to go sit in a corner, read it's constituiton, and realize that the people are perfectly capable of saving their own money if the government got out of the way and stopped making promises of cradle to grave care with money stolen from someone else's cradle.

    End social security. The government should do NOTHING more than refuse to tax savings and the interest accrued. That's it. Let the people rule their own lives without the incredibly intelligent people like Nancy Pelosi helping them.

  2. #262
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    Re: Social Security Fix

    There is a lot more to say about this than you imply. MY future is uncertain. I face a certain degree of risk over the coarse of my life. People benefit from knowing that they have a certain guarantee at the end of it all. Social Security ENCOURAGES people to take risks, and do something productive in their lives. Of course this argument may not be able to justify the massive amount of spending we have now for SS, yet you have to realize that it is whole lot more than just "people ruling there own lives." There is such a thing as risk, it exists.

  3. #263
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    Re: Social Security Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    The US didn't go bankrupt after WWII left us a debt far higher than the one we have now in terms of percent of GDP, yet now we find people ready to declare bankruptcy. People who consider themselves to be conservatives, no less, and who have managed their own finances conservatively, yet don't want the US government to do the same.

    We have to cut back spending and increase taxes in order to get out of the hole we're in. No one wants to hear that, of course, and no one in Washington wants to hear it. They'd much rather blather about how cutting taxes brings in more revenues, and how deficits don't matter.

    We have to look at the entire budget, not just "discretionary" spending. it's going to be painful, no question, but not as painful as hyper inflation caused by printing money or as an economic collapse caused by bankruptcy.

    The US is too big to fail. Such a default would bring the world economic system down.

    Hmmm...unfunded liability is 107 trillion dollars and rising, the GDP is $14 trillion and falling. (The Mayor isn't ignorant of inflation) So, currently, as a fraction of GDP, the nation owes 700%, plus interest.

    Saying the US is "too big to fail" mocks history. Rome was too big to fail, too, but it fell anyway. The British empire failed, twice. The Evil Empire is gone.

    The United States is not an empire, but it can die just the same from economic mismanagement.


    =======================
    EDIT:

    Also, the United States, at the end of WWII, was in the historically unique position of being the only industrialized nation with intact factories, able to immediately retool to the demands of peacetime consumerism and able to export goods to satisfy demand from all points on the globe.

    There's no demand for the crap made in America's factories today. The coming crash isn't going to be ameliorated by foreign demands for Made in the USA. Made in the USA is a joke, a sign of junk. The coming crash is going to see a drastic decline in any demand for overpriced low quality American crap.

    We're not going to be buying foreign oil with printed dollars, so our energy prices are going to soar. Higher energy costs means more unemployment, more unemployment means less tax revenue. Less tax revenue leads to greater deficits, and greater deficits encourages the politicians to print more money, leading to higher energy prices.

    Continued or more socialism isn't going to change this.
    Last edited by Mayor Snorkum; 04-11-11 at 03:20 AM.

  4. #264
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    Re: Social Security Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    There is a lot more to say about this than you imply. MY future is uncertain. I face a certain degree of risk over the coarse of my life.
    Yes yes yes.

    Your life is no different from anyone else's, and who cares? What's important is that THIS particular nation is based on the notion that people are free to run their own lives, and the price of their freedom is the risk and consequences of failure.

    If you wish to enter into a voluntary insurance program with others to cover risks of getting old, fine. The Constitution does not allow the Congress to pass laws forcing strangers to subsidize your retirement.

    Charity is voluntary, not coercive.


    [qoute]People benefit from knowing that they have a certain guarantee at the end of it all.[/quote]

    As can be seen, the guarantee is a broken promise and the end of it all is national bankruptcy.

    Social Security ENCOURAGES people to take risks, and do something productive in their lives.
    Oh, please.

    The savings rate in the United States is NEGATIVE. Socialist Security has encouraged people to be fools.


    Of course this argument may not be able to justify the massive amount of spending we have now for SS,
    NOTHING justifies the gross violations of the Constitution the departures from freedom into the realm of socialism that are contained in the philosophy and practice of the Social Security ponzi scheme. Congress lacked the authority to pass that law, and the wisdom of the people who limited to powers of Congress was confirmed when it became clear the Ponzi Scheme has failed.

    yet you have to realize that it is whole lot more than just "people ruling there own lives." There is such a thing as risk, it exists.
    Yes, risk exists. However, there was no risk involved when FDR embarked on the greatest Ponzi Scheme the world had ever seen. It was guaranteed to fail, because all pyramid scams fail.

    The nation needs to get back to where there's a risk of failure for the individual, not a guarantee of failure for the whole nation.

  5. #265
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    Re: Social Security Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    Hello?

    If it's "private savings accounts" it ain't social security
    sure it is. social security is just a name. you could just as easily point out that in either path the individual chose, we are "securing" "society" against having to deal with them if they retire impoverished.

    The individual and only the individual bears responsibility for his future, and no one should be forced to hold their hand, especially not when they can no longer take care of themselves because their hands are busy holding others.
    man did you even read the OP?

  6. #266
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    Re: Social Security Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    The US didn't go bankrupt after WWII left us a debt far higher than the one we have now in terms of percent of GDP, yet now we find people ready to declare bankruptcy
    yes. that's because it's not the debt that's going to wipe us out, it's the debt plus the mandated, rapid, and massive increases in government spending that are scheduled to occur in the next few years. that's what we face now that we didn't face post-WWII

    People who consider themselves to be conservatives, no less, and who have managed their own finances conservatively, yet don't want the US government to do the same.
    actually we do, which is why we want to cut spending to bring it to our income (this is the biggest long-term flaw i see in the Ryan plan - he assumes 20% when the historical average is more like 19% of revenue), but it's still 100% better than anything else floating around out there). since the single biggest ticket item driving that spending (and us) into bankruptcy is our entitlement system, the payouts going to that system will have to be reduced.

    We have to cut back spending and increase taxes in order to get out of the hole we're in. No one wants to hear that, of course, and no one in Washington wants to hear it. They'd much rather blather about how cutting taxes brings in more revenues, and how deficits don't matter.
    raising taxes generally doesn't bring in more revenue (and can sometimes curtail it) unless you are able to provide the taxpayers an incentive to pay that is higher than their loss. that's why combining popping the cap with privatized tax-free accounts can assume increased revenue, but simply hiking the top tax rate to (say) 40% can't.

    We have to look at the entire budget, not just "discretionary" spending
    yup. which is why we are having this discussion. how do we reform Social Security so that we can keep some form of protection for our elderly against poverty, but at the same time reduce our payouts over the next few decades?

    The US is too big to fail. Such a default would bring the world economic system down.
    which doesn't make it 'too big to fail'. that is a name that applies only to entities that can be bailed out. there is no entity big enough to bail us out.

  7. #267
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    Re: Social Security Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by drz-400 View Post
    Popping the cap is probobly a necessity, though it is probobly not entirely fair since many of these people will never see a dime of that back
    as we sit now, that's a forgone conclusion. The American People wrote themselves a bad check. but again, this plan gives backmore than it takes from everyone under $604,000. that's the best i could do, those above will just have to deal.

    I believe your plan would be feasable with reduced benefits paid out to SS beneficiaries (not your private accounts but the general ones if you know what I mean), raising the retirement age, etc
    we will probably have to do those things as well, though only temporarily. the future solvency of the program would allow retirement age for the government plan to steady while life expectancy rose.

    Also, a smaller amount being diverted from SS to the private accounts would be needed.
    you're assuming everyone would immediately switch over. i find that highly unlikely.

    You could in theory get the money from other parts of the general fund by reducing spending elsewhere, how feasible this is in reality I am not entirely convinced of.
    you seen the Republican 2012 proposed budget?

    Also, cpwill, I believe this aspect of investing in the stock market is rarely discussed. While I agree the prospects of such a system are better as far as return, overall health of the economy, etc, You have to figure in the amount of corruption, and cronyism that will arise out of the government investing practically trillions into the stock market. You think companies lobbying for government money is bad now, just wait until the government puts other peoples money up for grabs in the stock market. Basically, you need a pretty objective way for the government to do this type of investing to keep it from becoming a free for all.
    damn, that's a good point. you would need to either allow for individual investing, or set up a series of funds, as pension plans and tsp do.

  8. #268
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    Re: Social Security Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by Mayor Snorkum View Post
    Hmmm...unfunded liability is 107 trillion dollars and rising, the GDP is $14 trillion and falling. (The Mayor isn't ignorant of inflation) So, currently, as a fraction of GDP, the nation owes 700%, plus interest.

    Saying the US is "too big to fail" mocks history. Rome was too big to fail, too, but it fell anyway. The British empire failed, twice. The Evil Empire is gone.

    The United States is not an empire, but it can die just the same from economic mismanagement.


    =======================
    EDIT:

    Also, the United States, at the end of WWII, was in the historically unique position of being the only industrialized nation with intact factories, able to immediately retool to the demands of peacetime consumerism and able to export goods to satisfy demand from all points on the globe.

    There's no demand for the crap made in America's factories today. The coming crash isn't going to be ameliorated by foreign demands for Made in the USA. Made in the USA is a joke, a sign of junk. The coming crash is going to see a drastic decline in any demand for overpriced low quality American crap.

    We're not going to be buying foreign oil with printed dollars, so our energy prices are going to soar. Higher energy costs means more unemployment, more unemployment means less tax revenue. Less tax revenue leads to greater deficits, and greater deficits encourages the politicians to print more money, leading to higher energy prices.

    Continued or more socialism isn't going to change this.

    The GDP is rising.


    The Gross Domestic Product (GDP) in the United States expanded 3.1 percent in the fourth quarter of 2010 over the previous quarter. From 1947 until 2010 The United States' average quarterly GDP Growth was 3.30 percent reaching an historical high of 17.20 percent in March of 1950 and a record low of -10.40 percent in March of 1958. The economy of the United States is the largest in the world. The United States is a market-oriented economy where private individuals and business firms make most of the decisions. The federal and state governments buy needed goods and services predominantly in the private marketplace. This page includes: United States GDP Growth Rate chart, historical data and
    The national debt is in the order of 14 trillion, which is bad enough, but exaggerating it doesn't help to clarify anything.

    Socialism is government control of industry. No one here is suggesting that.

    So, no, I wouldn't count the USA out just yet.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

  9. #269
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    Re: Social Security Fix

    found someone who has run the figures. it turns out that even if you pop the cap and don't tie higher benefits to that extra income, it's still nowhere near enough.

  10. #270
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    Re: Social Security Fix

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    found someone who has run the figures. it turns out that even if you pop the cap and don't tie higher benefits to that extra income, it's still nowhere near enough.
    So, if the government does declare bankruptcy, as has been suggested here, and doesn't pay back the money it has borrowed from SS, then the program is kaput, and people who have paid into it are just SOL. Nice. I really thought the government would be better than Enron. Wrong.
    "Donald Trump is a phony, a fraud... [he's] playing the American public for suckers." Mitt Romney

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