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Does defense justify torture?

Does defense justify torture?

  • Total voters
    49
Goobieman said:
No, you stated an opinion. You didnt present anything that leads to a sound conclusion.

You also skipped this AGAIN:
And yet you agree that when faced with two choices that are wrong, you take the one that causes the least harm.
Reconcile these positions.
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Feel free to continue splitting hairs and moving the goalposts. We're done here.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Feel free to continue splitting hairs and moving the goalposts. We're done here.
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Asking you to lay out a sound argument, rather than simply stating an opinion, isn't splitting hairs.
But, I accept your concession of the point.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I've been trying to make this argument about my feeling about the government torturing people the whole time I've been responding. You're the one who keeps trying to make it about me personally.
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Well, no; you made it about yourself:

TacticalEvilDan said:
I agree.

Mere survival makes us no better than the beasts of the wild.

I'd much prefer to die a human than live as an animal.
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TacticalEvilDan said:
Harshaw said:
Such over-the-top absolutism is asinine. You're saying you'd choose death -- or the death of a loved one -- over making a morally suspect choice in every single instance.
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It is not, to me, morally suspect. It's ****ing evil.

So yeah, I'd make that choice every single time.
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So, I take it, you would beat the location of your daughter out of a guy to keep her from being hacked to death? Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Goobieman said:
Sure you are. You're conceding that your position isnt based on a sound argument, only your subjective opinion.
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Oh, another fatal flaw in this thread . . .

Some are arguing, apparently, about making "torture" a policy, while others are talking about a "ticking bomb" situation. Not the same thing at all. This, too, goes back to the equivocal language in the original post.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
No, you changed the subject and I slipped and let you get away with it by responding in kind. That was a mistake on my part, I got caught up in the moment.
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I just followed what you said.

But you still haven't given me a definitive answer on my actual question, which isn't about giving anyone authority to do anything.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
I actually didn't say any such thing, liar.
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Oh, don't get worked up. Your exact wording was that we take a piece of their humanity. This is actually more fortune cookie, but it's the same thing. To suggest that taking humanity away from people through "torture" suggests that such things don't occur during the normal recourse of some impractical sense of perfect warfare. In the end, the wars end, and the players go back to their corners. Morality is very subjective to the individual and his luxuries.


TacticalEvilDan said:
I think the fact that the United States of America dropped atomic bombs on civilian population centers is a black mark on our "moral authority" that will never, ever go away.

At any rate, I don't care if the people we torture are terrorists or Girl Scouts, it's evil no matter who you do it to.
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This is what I mean. You think too hard on such things. Our moral authority was not in question throughout the Cold War despite the Dresden, Hiroshima, & Nagasaki, Vietnam, and "Reagan's quest for a nuclear holocaust."

No empire has risen out of perfection. See, it's one thing to state that we screwed up here and there. Another to state that such things have such alarming ramifications, despite the truth of history.

TacticalEvilDan said:
I never said it's legal. Will you stop putting words in my mouth, please?
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Well, I don't mean to do that. This argument always tends to imply untruths.


TacticalEvilDan said:
At any rate, I want my government to stop torturing people, and I want those who tortured to be punished alongside those who ordered or authorized or ignored the torture.
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And this would be that untruth. Your comlaint has no real stage. Who has been tortured? I know of three that have been waterboarded. If I hadn't listed the three that are the only ones on record, you wouldn't even know about them. But you don;t like using the word "waterboard." You prefer "torture." Does it make the exaggerations more delicious?
 
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TacticalEvilDan said:
[]
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Whatever floats your boat :shrug:
Doesnt change the fact that, all this time, while discussing your subjective opinion, you've presented nothing more compelling than you liking the taste of chocolate.
 
Harshaw said:
I just followed what you said.

But you still haven't given me a definitive answer on my actual question, which isn't about giving anyone authority to do anything.
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I have no interest in talking about it because, to be honest, unless and until I'm ever in such a dreadful situation I won't know the answer.

All I know for certain is that I hate and distrust the hacks that run this country enough that I don't want the government to have the authority to do it ever ever ever.
 
I don't know of anyone who wants to give the government "authority" to "torture." I think there are about five innings' worth of stolen bases there.
 
MSgt said:
And this would be that untruth. Your comlaint has no real stage. Who has been tortured? I know of three that have been waterboarded.
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Well, then, you've answered your own question.

At any rate, I'm positive the list is longer, and my assertion is based on the record my government has for doing distasteful things in the name of expedience when I'm not looking.
 
Harshaw said:
I don't know of anyone who wants to give the government "authority" to "torture." I think there are about five innings' worth of stolen bases there.
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I kinda figured that arguing that the government should have the power to torture goes hand-in-hand with a discussion titled "Does defense justify torture."

ETA: To clarify, I should've said, "whether or not the government should have the power."
 
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TacticalEvilDan said:
I kinda figured that arguing that the government should have the power to torture goes hand-in-hand with a discussion titled "Does defense justify torture."
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That is, as I pointed out above, a problem with the language in the OP. Far too vague.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Sure thing, coward.

We're done here.
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I'm not sure why you are calling me a coward. After 18 years of Marine Corps in four separate engagements, I've proven quite the opposite. But, I understand your world is different from mine. I have been very clear. I find it humerous that without being insulted you feel that your only response to not being able to add some substance to your accusations of a torturous America is to insult. It's not something to get wounded over.
 
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TacticalEvilDan said:
Well, then, you've answered your own question.
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Well I can answer this question. It's you that could not without my assistance. The reason for this is that you are quite content running off of the assumptions, exaggerations and lies that have branded this nation as a tyrant. Torturous secret camps across Europe and GITMO depravities have all come down to nothing. Yet, the rumors and the assumptions persist.

TacticalEvilDan said:
At any rate, I'm positive the list is longer, and my assertion is based on the record my government has for doing distasteful things in the name of expedience when I'm not looking.
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Well, you're not positive. You assume. And you aren't really looking now. You've merely heard rumors. Rumors that the Democratic Party are no longer a part of. Perhaps because the time to cash in on the over zealous accusations have served its purpose. Perhaps because there was never really anything to it. One would think that President Obama would blow the lid off of exactly what he used to criticize, but he hasn't. What does this tell you?
 
Goobieman said:
Hmm. Dont you, as a rule, oppose the slippery slope argument?
Or is that just when it is convenient?
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If the government is allowed to torture anyone, then it can torture anyone. Do you disagree or not? Citizenship is nothing more than a nuisance. Not an actual obstacle.
 
Hatuey said:
If the government is allowed to torture anyone, then it can torture anyone. Do you disagree or not?
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Anyone or everyone? The government can arrest anyone but not everyone.

Not everyone gets arrested and not everyone gets tortured. There're guidelines, authorization and stuff.
 
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Guy Incognito said:
Secular humanists and atheists like to make consequentialist arguments like these. I find it nonsensical. If an action is morally wrong, then it is morally wrong, period, it doesn't matter how much utility an immoral action has, it simply must not be done.
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so no, you would not tell a white lie to save a childs' life.
 
Hatuey said:
If the government is allowed to torture anyone, then it can torture anyone. Do you disagree or not? Citizenship is nothing more than a nuisance. Not an actual obstacle.
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The slippery slope argument too often stifles our progress. This occurs when people forget their own culture. We are not in danger of becoming French or German anymore than we are in danger of haphazardly dropping nuclear bombs around the globe. We can't perform abortion for the raped because of the "slippery slope." We can't experiment with stem cells because of the "slippery slope." We can't allow the Pledge of Allegiance in schools or the Ten Commandments on court steps because of the "slippery slope." Ours is a culture that has proven to be able to draw lines in the sand and then re-draw them as needed. Never have we lost control or become our enemy.
 
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