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Does defense justify torture?

Does defense justify torture?

  • Total voters
    49
bub said:
It's not because France did something bad that it gives the US a free pass to do the same.
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The same? A few equals hundreds of thousands? GITMO equals the Gulag? And so on? Same old story. See, you are doing exactly what SE102 is doing. First, offer a substantiated number of the "tortured." Until then, your criticism is based on heresays and rumors. After we actually produce this "mass system of torture" then we can discuss on how America should be dragged through the mud for minor imperfections while others who execute absolute dastardly major deeds get away with it. It's never America that gets away with it. We are always accountable. It's the rest that are not. It's our moral beliefs that have never sought genocide past the American Indian. It's our moral beliefs that have never sought to cast out immigrants or ethnically cleans our society. And it's our moral beliefs that even held waterboarding to the extreme few. So....how many have been waterboarded? If you've never looked into it, you'd be suprised what you find.
 
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Elaborate on this statement, please..I know of no nation occupying "Muslim land". In fact, just the opposite may be true....
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Weird... theres that like... history of you know colonialism of like you know...200 years or so... and not to mention the denial of geopolitical reality of the last oh... since the cold war.
 
SE102 said:
Well, pardner.... I dont know how the 'law' and international coercion by the hegemonic state works... but how is it they just make this stuff up?



Issue more hackery to back it up now* :roll:

Regimes of the past in europe who tortured sure override and make an excuse that we are right to do it.

;)
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You are still dodging. You imply a mass system of torture, yet have nothing to base it on outside of rumor, heresay, and exaggeration. You are welcome to use your next post to actually establish an argument. I suspect that you will do as others do and simply seek an argument about why torture is bad without showing evidence of your implications.
 
MSgt said:
The same? A few equals hundreds of thousands? GITMO equals the Gulag? And soon? Sameold story. See, you are doing exactly what SE102 is doing. First, offer a substantiated number of the "tortured." UNtil then, your criticism is based on heresays and rumors. After we actually produce this "mass system of torture" then we can discuss on how America should be dragged through the mud for minor imperfections while others who execute absolute dastardly major deeds get away with it. It's never America that gets away with it. We are always accountable. It's the rest that are not.
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Please... offer a substantiated number of tortured, until then we have the right to assume out government doing its worst.
Strange you hate the government, but don't care if it could possibly be torturing dozens to hundreds of people at once.
 
megaprogman said:
Amnesty International wants Bush prosecuted for his roll in waterboarding. One of the defenses of Bush I have come across is that torture is when used to defend innocent lives. I will admit, it is an interesting question for me to explore.

What is your opinion?
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AS long as those that they are torturing are actually "the enemy" and as long as they actually know information or intelligence, then I have no problem with it at all...
 
megaprogman said:
Amnesty International wants Bush prosecuted for his roll in waterboarding. One of the defenses of Bush I have come across is that torture is when used to defend innocent lives. I will admit, it is an interesting question for me to explore.

What is your opinion?
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My opinion is there are an awful lot of chicken****s in this world that have and would never lift a finger in the defense of self or others but have lived off the blood and sacrifice of others that then bitch about what others have done to preserve their safety. Its ALWAYS easy to bitch when someone else has to make the call. Its also always easy to excuse and justify a democrat presidents actions and then hypocritacally condemn the actions of a republican president. Its easy to bitch about Bush and Gitmo and denying terrosists constitutional rights then completely ignore Obamas decision to expand secure prisons in the middle east and decide to deny terrorists constitutional rights.
 
MSgt said:
The same? A few equals hundreds of thousands? GITMO equals the Gulag? And so on? Same old story. See, you are doing exactly what SE102 is doing. First, offer a substantiated number of the "tortured." Until then, your criticism is based on heresays and rumors. After we actually produce this "mass system of torture" then we can discuss on how America should be dragged through the mud for minor imperfections while others who execute absolute dastardly major deeds get away with it. It's never America that gets away with it. We are always accountable. It's the rest that are not. It's our moral beliefs that have never sought genocide past the American Indian. It's our moral beliefs that have never sought to cast out immigrants or ethnically cleans our society. And it's our moral beliefs that even held waterboarding to the extreme few. So....how many have been waterboarded? If you've never looked into it, you'd be suprised what you find.
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minor imperfections? You gotta be kidding
 
SE102 said:
Weird... theres that like... history of you know colonialism of like you know...200 years or so... and not to mention the denial of geopolitical reality of the last oh... since the cold war.
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Globalization tends to involve the entire globe. This complaint about "Muslim land" is a myth used by protestors that need simplicity to explain away a complex issue. I guess immigration is for all...except the Middle East? Corporation and culture is to cross borders all over the world....except the Middle East? Are you aware that only the radicals inside Iran agree with Amenedejad's order to ban all western cultural influence in Iran? Are you aware that Western culture (specifically the American culture) was deemed as against God in the 1950s by a man named Sayyid Qutb and his academic works are held dear by the Muslim Brotherhood? Did you know that there is a direct line from him to Osama Bin Laden? And that almost all Sunni terrorists (Al-Queda among them) are members? You see without support for Israel...without a base in Saudi Arabia....without defending Saudi Arabia against Saddam Hussein, without our "infectious" culture, ...and without our freedom of expression, radical members of a failed religious region would merely find another excuse to lash out their resentments and blames.

Another fact that escapes the classroom veterans far from the region is that Al-Queda has killed far more Muslims than westerners. Another fact is that throughout the twentieth century (and this one) fellow Muslims have proven to be a Muslim's worse enemy. This is a sure sign of a religionin crisis. And the twentieth century proved that Islam as an organizing tool has failed. This is why the radicals seek a "pure" Islam and are willing to slaughter asmany of their own to achieve the impossible in a progressive world.

If you actually think about your protests you would find that you wish to cater towards the radical rather than the vast majority who seek a path that travels away from Sharia and contuined regional failure. There's a reason Turkey and Israel are leaps and bounds beyond the rest in this region.
 
It's our moral beliefs that have never sought genocide past the American Indian.
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How honorable right

You're still vaporising the crops of natives in SAmerica who have been harvesting their holy plants since before there was reading in europe... :roll: cmon.
 
What's crazy to me is that many of the people here saying that we should be able to torture are the same people who are always complaining that the government is incompetent and needs to stay out of our lives. So you don't want the government in your lives or taking your money but you think they're qualified to know when and when not to torture detainees? It's funny how conservatives suddenly trust the government when their pocketbooks aren't on the line.
 
SE102 said:
Please... offer a substantiated number of tortured, until then we have the right to assume out government doing its worst.
Strange you hate the government, but don't care if it could possibly be torturing dozens to hundreds of people at once.
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Well, you have the right to worship pine cones, but I would expect a measure of practical common sense to prevail. With all this rumor, Democratic partisan grandstanding, and exaggerated accusations.....where is this mass torture program? You use the words "assume" and "possible" and "dozens." What does this tell you? A mass torture progams full of secret torture camps would surely offermore than dozens. And certainly with thousands in cutody between GITMO, Iraq, and Afghanistan (places that do exist in the realm of proof) you limit your earlier implications to a mere possible hundreds? You are clueless and you know it. You just like the accusation.

By the way, I don't hate the government. I just don't have any impractical expectations of perfection and I demand better stewards. If torture is in order, I expect torture without your attention so as to allow you your illusions of easy freedom and lifestyle. I don't expect a bunch of dip****s willing to embarrass the nation for some political points. The "Greatest Generation" dropped atomic bombs. How dare this generation waterboard a few souls.
 
MSgt said:
Globalization tends to involve the entire globe. This complaint about "Muslim land" is a myth used by protestors that need simplicity to explain away a complex issue. I guess immigration is for all...except the Middle East?
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Firstly, right to sovereignty, meaning not to have their governments controlled by our companies. Secondly... immigration to the ME, are you talking about Israel?



Are you aware that only the radicals inside Iran agree with Amenedejad's order to ban all western cultural influence in Iran? Are you aware that Western culture (specifically the American culture) was deemed as against God in the 1950s by a man named Sayyid Qutb and his academic works are held dear by the Muslim Brotherhood?
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Don't even try to start talking about the apocalypse to me. Firstly you wouldnt accept Islamic influence in your community. So you can really stuff that point. Secondly, our country has a history of imperially ****ing other countries. Human reciprocity here.

Did you know that there is a direct line from him to Osama Bin Laden?
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Pfft, so, a murderer is a murderer. I dont care if his name is Mulsamico-al-jihad or Americano-San-conquernator

And that almost all Sunni terrorists (Al-Queda among them) are members? You see without support for Israel...without a base in Saudi Arabia....without defending Saudi Arabia against Saddam Hussein, without our "infectious" culture, ...and without our freedom of expression, radical members of a failed religious region would merely find another excuse to lash out their resentments and blames.
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OMg they got problems from us being there for so long we gotta enforce some mofr problems today!

Another fact that escapes the classroom veterans far from the region is that Al-Queda has killed far more Muslims than westerners.
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Not sure about that. Wikileaks and the number of people and families shot up at checkpoints might be in conflict... gotta research that one.

Another fact is that throughout the twentieth century (and this one) fellow Muslims have proven to be a Muslim's worse enemy. This is a sure sign of a religionin crisis. And the twentieth century proved that Islam as an organizing tool has failed. This is why the radicals seek a "pure" Islam and are willing to slaughter asmany of their own to achieve the impossible in a progressive world.
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Righteous ****, glad you're a progressive.

If you actually think about your protests you would find that you wish to cater towards the radical rather than the vast majority who seek a path that travels away from Sharia and contuined regional failure. There's a reason Turkey and Israel are leaps and bounds beyond the rest in this region.
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Not for the reasons you assume.
 
SE102 said:
Weird... theres that like... history of you know colonialism of like you know...200 years or so... and not to mention the denial of geopolitical reality of the last oh... since the cold war.
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That is the past, what Western country right now is occupying "Muslim land".
 
Bodhisattva said:
That is the past, what Western country right now is occupying "Muslim land".
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Iraq... afghanistan..

Ima draw a 2d picture



(america)--------------------(foreign navy)---------------------(Middle East)


Place the foreign navy as accurately as possible on the scale.
 
Mustachio said:
What's crazy to me is that many of the people here saying that we should be able to torture are the same people who are always complaining that the government is incompetent and needs to stay out of our lives. So you don't want the government in your lives or taking your money but you think they're qualified to know when and when not to torture detainees? It's funny how conservatives suddenly trust the government when their pocketbooks aren't on the line.
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Don't make the mistake others are making here. GITMO is alive and well under a Democratic White House and absolutely ignored by the Democratic Party. This transcends the simpleton's need for it to be political. "Torture" was always merely a political tool as the ignorant around the globe jumped aboard. It was never the mass program people wanted it to be and waterboarding was always reserved for the extreme exception. Using the word "torture" merely added spice to the protest. Bush's only sin was condoning it in the public's eye. Interrogation went on before him and will go on during and after Obama's time.
 
ecofarm said:
The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Much of that is violated by prison. In the US, life and the right to vote are violated in prison; I'm against both of those punishments.
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Agreed. Even criminal prisoners deserve the protection of their rights. Debating the American prison system is probably going off-topic, so I just say I believe it bitterly deserves reform as well. Isn't the number of prisoners per capita very high in the US? The often reported allegedly horrible conditions and many "accidents" in American prisons are not in order, something should be done here. Also, it seems to me that many people, in America and elsewhere, are quick at judging convicted criminals, vengeful thinking is common, considering them monsters and denying them a second chance. The idea of rehabilitation has no priority. That's bad, both ethically and practically, IMHO. Of course, some extreme cases can never be expected to have a second chance, but most prisoners can, and investing in means to prepare them for their second chance, and prevention, rather than taking revenge and debasing them, would probably save a lot of money on the long run.
 
SE102 said:
How honorable right

You're still vaporising the crops of natives in SAmerica who have been harvesting their holy plants since before there was reading in europe... :roll: cmon.
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Don't know what you are talking about. This is not genocide. The "free" market and the international banking system has a lot of people in the third world screwed. No genocide has come from American hands since our extended pioneer days. Can we state the same for Europeans in the twentieth century as late as the 1990s? Or the Middle East or Africa or Asia? Like I stated, it's our morality that allows us to move on from mistakes never to repeat them. And now, with the entire world seeking to cricify America for a handful of waterboarding cases after 9-11, we won't even make this one again.

Hundreds of thousands tortuired in Algeria by the French. Millions tortured by Germans in Europe. Hell, tens of thousands of Africans were tortured by Germans in Africa even before this. Any lessons learned at all? What was going on in "Yugoslavia" over a decade ago? But America waterboards a few terrorists for information after we are attacked on 9-11 and we "must pay" for our sins. Got to love that pedestal the world places us on.
 
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The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is an entirely hypocritical piece of paper. Someone who plots to kill the innocent, is part of a terrorist organization, and has information that could be life saving and beneficial in eradicating terrorism should be interrogated to the fullest extent feasible (including torture and drugs).
 
MSgt said:
Don't know what you are talking about. This is not genocide. The "free" market and the international banking system has a lot of people in the third world screwed. No genocide has come from American hands since our extended pioneer days. Can we state the same for Europeans in the twentieth century as late as the 1990s? Or the Middle East or Africa or Asia? Like I stated, it's our morality that allows us to move on from mistakes never to repeat them.
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We didn't commit genocide out of a matter of geographical and economic privilege...
 
megaprogman said:
Amnesty International wants Bush prosecuted for his roll in waterboarding. One of the defenses of Bush I have come across is that torture is when used to defend innocent lives. I will admit, it is an interesting question for me to explore.

What is your opinion?
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National defense justifies water-boarding.
 
SE102 said:
Iraq... afghanistan..

Ima draw a 2d picture



(america)--------------------(foreign navy)---------------------(Middle East)


Place the foreign navy as accurately as possible on the scale.
Click to expand...

Executive branch:
chief of state: President of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan Hamid KARZAI (since 7 December 2004); First Vice President Mohammad FAHIM Khan (since 19 November 2009); Second Vice President Abdul Karim KHALILI (since 7 December 2004); note - the president is both the chief of state and head of government
head of government: President of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan Hamid KARZAI (since 7 December 2004); First Vice President Mohammad FAHIM Khan (since 19 November 2009); Second Vice President Abdul Karim KHALILI (since 7 December 2004)
cabinet: 25 ministers; note - ministers are appointed by the president and approved by the National Assembly
(For more information visit the World Leaders website )
elections: the president and two vice presidents elected by direct vote for a five-year term (eligible for a second term); if no candidate receives 50% or more of the vote in the first round of voting, the two candidates with the most votes will participate in a second round; election last held on 20 August 2009 (next to be held in 2014)
election results: Hamid KARZAI reelected president; percent of vote - Hamid KARZAI 49.67%, Abdullah ABDULLAH 30.59%, Ramazan BASHARDOST 10.46%, Ashraf GHANI 2.94%; other 6.34%

Legislative branch:
the bicameral National Assembly consists of the Meshrano Jirga or House of Elders (102 seats, one-third of members elected from provincial councils for four-year terms, one-third elected from local district councils for three-year terms, and one-third nominated by the president for five-year terms) and the Wolesi Jirga or House of People (no more than 249 seats); members directly elected for five-year terms
note: on rare occasions the government may convene a Loya Jirga (Grand Council) on issues of independence, national sovereignty, and territorial integrity; it can amend the provisions of the constitution and prosecute the president; it is made up of members of the National Assembly and chairpersons of the provincial and district councils
elections: last held on 18 September 2010 (next election expected in 2015)
election results: NA

Judicial branch:
the constitution establishes a nine-member Stera Mahkama or Supreme Court (its nine justices are appointed for 10-year terms by the president with approval of the Wolesi Jirga) and subordinate High Courts and Appeals Courts; there is also a minister of justice; a separate Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission established by the Bonn Agreement is charged with investigating human rights abuses and war crimes

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/af.html

Executive branch:
chief of state: President Jalal TALABANI (since 6 April 2005); Vice Presidents Adil ABD AL-MAHDI and Tariq al-HASHIMI (since 22 April 2006); note - the president and vice presidents comprise the Presidency Council)
head of government: Prime Minister Nuri al-MALIKI (since 20 May 2006); Deputy Prime Ministers Rafi al-ISSAWI (since 19 July 2008) and Rowsch Nuri SHAWAYS (since 11 January 2010)
cabinet: Council of Ministers consists of 36 ministers appointed by the Presidency Council, plus Prime Minister Nuri al-MALIKI and Deputy Prime Ministers Rafi al-ISSAWI and Rowsch Nuri SHAWAYS
(For more information visit the World Leaders website )
elections: president elected by Council of Representatives (parliament) by a two-thirds majority vote to serve a four-year term (eligible for a second term)
election results: President Jalal TALABANI reelected on 22 April 2006; vote count NA

Legislative branch:
unicameral Council of Representatives (325 seats; consisting of 317 members elected by a closed-list, proportional representation system and 8 reserved for minorities; members serve four-year terms)
elections: last held on 7 March 2010 for an enlarged 325-seat parliament; next election to be held in 2014
election results: Council of Representatives - percent of vote by party - Iraqi National Movement 25.9%, State of Law Coalition 25.8%, Iraqi National Alliance 19.4%, Kurdistan Alliance 15.3%, Movement for Change 4.4%, Tawafuq Front 2.7%, Iraqi Unity Alliance 2.9%, Kurdiatan Islamic Union 2.3%, Kurdistan Islamic Group 1.4%, number of seats by party - Iraqi National Movement 91, State of Law Coalition 89, Iraqi National Alliance 70, Kurdistan Alliance 43, Movement for Change 8, Tawafuq Front 6, Iraqi Unity Alliance 4, Kurdistan Islamic Union 4, Kurdistan Islamic Group 2, seats reserved for minorities 8; note - election results are preliminary

Judicial branch:
the Iraq Constitution calls for the federal judicial power to be comprised of the Higher Judicial Council, Federal Supreme Court, Federal Court of Cassation, Public Prosecution Department, Judiciary Oversight Commission and other federal courts that are regulated in accordance with the law

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/iz.html

I see two independent nations here. We have army in many nations, are we occupying them all?

800px-US_military_bases_in_the_world.svg.png
 
SE102 said:
Iraq... afghanistan..

Ima draw a 2d picture



(america)--------------------(foreign navy)---------------------(Middle East)


Place the foreign navy as accurately as possible on the scale.
Click to expand...

The problem here is that we occupied neither Iraq nor Afghanistan before 9-11. Of course, back then it was all about how we "occupied" Saudi Arabia despite the invitation by the government. Of course, before this they hated us for our support for Israel, despite not being a direct supporter until 1967. Of course, then there's always the Shah of Iran, which no Sunni cares about, which was replaced by Khomeini - a man they would regret quickly as he destroyed Islam within Iran's borders. Oh, but before this there's Sayyid Qutb's declarations (1950s) that the American "Christian" culture had turned its back on God and declared us the enemy of Islam.

My point here is that "blame" is the narcotic of choice in the Arab Middle East. They will always have one as long as Islam is a religious and govermental mess in the Middle East.
 
I see two independent nations here. We have army in many nations, are we occupying them all?
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I never said such a thing, this does not negate the military involvement of the west in the middle east. Do you think we'd have the current situation in Iran without our involvement in the prior government?
 
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