View Poll Results: Does defense justify torture?

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Thread: Does defense justify torture?

  1. #61
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Ok, the big bad government lies about everything, nothing is true. Believe nothing - that's the best you got? 'Don't believe the goverment' and 'slippery slope'? You must be tired.
    If the government is the source of your claim, you must be incredibly naive. Of course they will say torture worked, because they need to gather support for their fascist policies.

    I did address that. It is morally wrong to allow thousands of innocents to die when you have a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt of immediate intended mass murder and can get info to stop the catastrophy. 1000 x right to life > 1 x right to not be tortured.
    I am 100% sure that in 99.9% of the cases, when torture as official policy is employed, you do not have a situation where there is a "conviction beyond reasonable doubt about intended mass murder" and this scenario simply does not exist outside of fascist propaganda shows like "Twenty-Four". But assuming it is, and I am in such a situation to decide, because I am a security officer or such, I'd probably indeed apply torture because of my conscience. And I would take full responsibility for my illegal decision of employing torture and accept the consequences, as it should be. Yet I would never accept torture becoming legal or official policy, because it should be obvious that in most cases, such a policy would result in unlimited abuse.

    Seriously, what's wrong with you Americans lately? Where has the respect for the most basic human right and legal standards gone? We're all proud to be better than people like Hitler, Stalin or Saddam, yet so many people seem to be just too eager to follow their examples by giving up even the most basic and fundamental moral standards that used to make us better.
    Last edited by German guy; 11-11-10 at 05:48 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  2. #62
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    Eco, how do you address the problems of torturing someone, ie them lying to escape the pain/discomfort. Wouldn't it be better to use other, more efficient methods to coerce a prisoner?
    Seek only verifiable information that the subject is absolutely known to have and is worth thousands of lives, see previous posts. If they lie, it gets worse.

    If you kill them, or worse, and the bomb goes off anyway... at least you tried to save all those people.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-11-10 at 05:44 PM.

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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Stop occupying their country... seek alternative energy - no torture or death.


  4. #64
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    ps. How can you espouse considerable social welfare or socialist policy and tell me 'don't believe the government'. Considering that your political opponents could win an election, what kind of policy is this?
    First, I do not "espouse considerable social welfare" and definitely not "socialist policy". I believe social safety nets and some redistribution are fine, but they must be limited.

    In a free republic, there are things that can be decided by majority, but others can't. Basic civil and human rights, as well as basic legal standards, are sacrosanct and every majority decision violating them is illegitimate, and a country that systematically violates them, by making this violation official policy, ceases to be a free republic. An independent judicary, the right on fair trials, on legal defense, and proper protection of the rights of suspects, who have to be considered innocent until proven guilty in a fair trial, and a ban on barbaric debasing practizes such as torture, are such basic human right and legal standards. Keeping poor people from dying of curable diseases by using public money to support them hardly is.
    Last edited by German guy; 11-11-10 at 05:49 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  5. #65
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Basic civil (and perhaps even human) rights end in the US and every nation on earth all the time. It's called prison. Prison violates human rights. Having knowledge to stop the murder of 1000s should also allow the violation of human rights.

    Three internationally known mass murderers were waterboarded and thousands of lives were saved. Don't throw honest intellectualism away to stand on some black/white absolutist moral ground.

    @SE102: One hello kitty cartoon spammer is enough. Let's not encourage it.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-11-10 at 05:56 PM.

  6. #66
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Seek only verifiable information that the subject is absolutely known to have and is worth thousands of lives, see previous posts. If they lie, it gets worse.

    If you kill them, or worse, and the bomb goes off anyway... at least you tried to save all those people.
    So as a worst case scenario, you would be fine if we resort to torture? Or would you want to use torture right of the bat?
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  7. #67
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    Basic civil (and perhaps even human) rights end in the US and every nation on earth all the time. It's called prison. Prison violates basic human rights. Having knowledge to stop the murder of 1000s should also allow the violation of human rights.
    My problem is not so much what happens with convicted criminals. The problem is, we are not talking about people who have been convicted in a fair trial. We are talking about suspects. And as things are, some suspects are guilty, but others are innocent.

    And, of course, even criminal prisoners enjoy rights that must be protected. The only justification for limiting some of their freedoms is to protect the rights of others.

    Three internationally known mass murderers were waterboarded and thousands of lives were saved. Don't throw honest intellectualism away to stand on some black/white absolutist moral ground - m'kay?
    So the ends justify the means? Just because something works, it's right? In that case, as I said, doing away with trials in general, and just shooting all suspects of any crime by default, would be fine as well.
    Last edited by German guy; 11-11-10 at 06:09 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  8. #68
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by repeter View Post
    So as a worst case scenario, you would be fine if we resort to torture? Or would you want to use torture right of the bat?
    Maybe not for minor traffic violation suspicions, but for any criminal suspicion an immediate taser (to get started) seems reasonable. Do try to keep up with context.



    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    My problem is not so much what happens with convicted criminals. The problem is, we are not talking about people who have been convicted in a fair trial. We are talking about suspects. And as things are, some suspects are guilty, but others are innocent.
    No, we're talking about three internationally known mass murderers who were captured with the bomb location.

    So the ends justify the means? Just because something works, it's right? In that case, as I said, doing away with trials and general, and just shooting all suspects of any crime by default, would be fine as well.
    Look, just because you slippery sloped and CT'd is no reason to go accusing me of silly things. It works; it should not be used except in the most extreme conditions, after multiple absolute convictions and for the 'location of the bomb' (so to speak).
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-11-10 at 06:07 PM.

  9. #69
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    No, we're talking about three internationally known mass murderers who were captured with the bomb location.

    Look, just because you slippery sloped and CT'd is no reason to go accusing my of silly things. It works; it should not be used except in the most extreme conditions, after multipe absolute convictions and for the 'location of the bomb' (so to speak).
    Ok, if that's what you are saying, maybe I misunderstood you. As I said, if I was in the position to decide to employ torture, and I personally am convinced this would help saving the lives of thousands of people, I'd probably do it too. But I still don't believe torture should ever become official policy, or be legal. Simply because there is way too much room for abuse and error. Even if that means I will have to face consequences for breaking the law, in that hypothetical example.
    Last edited by German guy; 11-11-10 at 06:09 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  10. #70
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Look are the CIA going to release a memo in public eyes that says torture is not working.

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