View Poll Results: Does defense justify torture?

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Thread: Does defense justify torture?

  1. #51
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    You'd let thousands of innocents die instead of torturing for the bomb location, when we are absolutely sure we have the criminal responsible?

    That's wrong.



    And I don't buy slippery slope arguments. They are akin to black/white thinking.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-11-10 at 05:10 PM.

  2. #52
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You'd let thousands of innocents die instead of torturing for the bomb location, when we are absolutely sure we have the criminal responsible?
    That's wrong.
    What if instead of focusing on torture in taht situation if we focused ongetting relevant information?

    How often does this particular situation occur by the way?
    I may be wrong.

  3. #53
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    I thought, for argument's sake, we agreed that no other means could be considered (given time, ability, resources or whatever).

    Apparently, three times (for the US) since 9/11. I imagine it will be less when we are not actively chasing people who are trying desperately to slaughter a maximum number of innocents during the height of Al Q's organizational capacity.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-11-10 at 05:16 PM.

  4. #54
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You'd let thousands of innocents die instead of torturing for the bomb location, when we are absolutely sure we have the criminal responsible? That's wrong.
    When is this ever a relevant scenario, except in Hollywood fictions and exaggerated TV shows la "Twenty-Four"? It seems too many people can't distinguish between fiction and reality anymore.

    And no, government must never have the power to torture mere suspects and get away with it. Do you think a mere accusation against you gives the government the right to arrest you and torture you, without any evidence or fair trial? Once this is official policy, it's inevitable many innocent people get caught in the wheels of the Leviathan and crushed by government.

    When that means that there is less security, then I have to say this is the price of freedom. It would probably safer in terms of security too, if we abrogated trials in general and just executed all suspects. The one who did it will be among them, so killing all 10 suspects is the safest way to make sure he can't commit his crime again. Fascism is probably much safer than a free society. But safety and security is not all, isn't it?
    Last edited by German guy; 11-11-10 at 05:14 PM.
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  5. #55
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I thought, for argument's sake, we agreed that no other means could be considered (given time, ability, resources or whatever).

    Apparently, three times (for the US) since 9/11.
    So, three times since 9-11 we got the location of a bomb?
    I may be wrong.

  6. #56
    global liberation

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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    When is this ever a relevant scenario, except in Hollywood fictions and exaggerated TV shows la "Twenty-Four"? It seems too many people can't distinguish between fiction and reality anymore.
    I'm distiguishing very clearly (and have done so many times) - the three times it has been used in reality by the US since 9/11.

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    So, three times since 9-11 we got the location of a bomb?
    Basically, yes.

  7. #57
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I'm distiguishing very clearly (and have done so many times) - the three times it has been used in reality by the US since 9/11.
    Said who? The government? The same big government authoritarians that violate basic human rights by holding mere suspects indefinitely, denying them fair trials and a chance to defend themselves? Now that's a source we can trust.

    And you didn't address the rest of my argument. I explained why I believe it would even be wrong to use torture if it improved security.
    Last edited by German guy; 11-11-10 at 05:25 PM.
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  8. #58
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Ok, the big bad government lies about everything. 'Don't believe the goverment' and 'slippery slope'? You must be tired.

    I did address that. It is morally wrong to allow thousands of innocents to die when you have a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt of immediate intended mass murder and can get info to stop the catastrophy. 1000 x right to life > 1 x right to not be tortured. At some point or circumstance, pretty much any right ends. That's just how it is.

    ps. How can you espouse considerable social welfare or socialist policy and tell me 'don't believe the government'. Considering that your political opponents could win an election, what kind of policy is this?
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-11-10 at 05:39 PM.

  9. #59
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    Said who? The government? The same big government authoritarians that violate basic human rights by holding mere suspects indefinitely, denying them fair trials and a chance to defend themselves? Now that's a source we can trust.
    this always gets me. yeah we are "technically" violating their "human rights" but have you ever been to the places these guys come from? have you seen the living conditions there? the detainees at GITMO have better food, better medical treatment, better housing etc than 90% of their fellow countrymen. The downside is that they are not free to come and go as they please, but then again...most of their fellow countrymen aren't either. They live better than most of the US troops living in Iraq and Afghanistan and have just as much freedom.

    we are doing most of them a favor by keeping their ass detained because if they weren't, they'd have probably blown themself up by now.
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  10. #60
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Eco, how do you address the problems of torturing someone, ie them lying to escape the pain/discomfort. Wouldn't it be better to use other, more efficient methods to coerce a prisoner?
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