View Poll Results: Does defense justify torture?

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    37 48.68%
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    25 32.89%
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Thread: Does defense justify torture?

  1. #401
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    I forget the context, but I think I was being picky and objecting that the torture could fail in addition to objecting to context.
    nothing in the world has a 100% success rate (except Chuck Norris). that being said, the last 5 directors of the CIA, to include those that served under Republican and Democrat Presidents, have all stated that (whether you think shoving someone's shoulders into a fake wall is torture or not) the enhanced interrogation program saved countless lives and gave us more information on Al-Qaeda than all other sources combined.

  2. #402
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It is false dichotomy since the scenario given has only two allowed answers. Torture the terrorist or allow NYC to blow up. It assumes there are no other valid methods by which NYC can be prevented from being nuked. That's what makes it false dichotomy. Perhaps there are many other methods to do so. There are a lot of assumptions made in the "Torture a terrorist or NYC blows up" false dichotomy including that the authorities have a terrorist with pertinent information on the disarming of the bomb in question, that there is no other way to disarm the bomb, that you can get reliable information from said terrorist under duress, etc. It's not enough to make generalized torture policy off of. How many innocent people get tortured? How much viable information comes out of torture? Of course we most likely would never have access to the full statistics as I'm sure much of it is classified. Still the point remains. There are well too many uncertainties involved with any actual terrorist case and the situations under which the false dichotomy is presented is one of low probability.
    It's a moot argument anyway. Torture is illegal in this country.

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  3. #403
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    okay, but now you are ignoring probabilities.

    waterboard the prisoner: 98% chance he will tell you in time

    pretty-please the prisoner: 1% chance he will tell you in time

    offer to bribe the prisoner: 5% chance he will tell you in time

    search NYC: 5% chance of finding it, with a 0.5% chance of finding and disarming it

    search NYC while ordering an evacuation: 2.5% chance of finding the bomb, 100% chance of mass-panic, riots, killings, etc
    Statistics are completely made up, 42% of the population knows that.

    But seriously, it really sounds like you completely made up those numbers.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

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  4. #404
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    It's a moot argument anyway. Torture is illegal in this country.
    Like something being illegal would ever stop the government. Who throws them in jail if they break the law?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  5. #405
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    I don't care what other countries think any more. Make fun of the USA, but as soon as their butts are in a sling, who do they run to? Uh huh.

    It's way simplistic for me. Kind of like if you enter my home and harm anyone in it. I'll do whatever it takes to protect everyone there. Yes, I'll call 911. You just have to determine if I make the call before or after I've dealt with you. Same theory for me on torture and the US and our enemies. You do whatever it takes. WE come first.

  6. #406
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post
    I don't care what other countries think any more. Make fun of the USA, but as soon as their butts are in a sling, who do they run to? Uh huh.

    .
    that's the part that gets me. everyone wants the US to mind its own business...UNTIL the tsunami hits their country, or the earthquake, or the volcano erupts or some madman starts killing hundreds of thousands of their citizens. Then they want us to spend our money and resources to bail them out.

    well, I say "**** them" let them fend for their freakin selves from now on. If you don't want to accept our interference in your life...don't ask for/take our charity.
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  7. #407
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elixir View Post
    It's way simplistic for me. Kind of like if you enter my home and harm anyone in it. I'll do whatever it takes to protect everyone there. Yes, I'll call 911. You just have to determine if I make the call before or after I've dealt with you. Same theory for me on torture and the US and our enemies. You do whatever it takes. WE come first.
    Agreed. About the only practical effect of the "no harsh interrogation" rule is that we are no longer taking as many prisoners as we used to. If we can't get information out of them, there isn't much point in feeding them or releasing them to try again.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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  8. #408
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Statistics are completely made up, 42% of the population knows that.

    But seriously, it really sounds like you completely made up those numbers.
    i did. would you argue that pretty-pleasing a dedicated jihadist has a greater than 1% chance that he will suddenly decide to discard his faith, give up his life, end what he's worked for, turn on his closest comrades, and give you what you need to know?

    would you argue that it has a greater than 25% chance (i sure as hell would not). ?

    i don't mind discussing alternatives, but let's not pretend that in a matter where time has priority, that you shouldn't account for likelihood of rapid success.

    KSM, for example, was interrogated using multiple techniques, and he basically told us to go F ourselves. when you are working with the higher level guys, you are working with people who have received interrogation resistance training, the same a we do to our own people at SERE school.

    then we dunked his head under water.

    then he told us everything we wanted to know, and quite a few things that we didn't even know to ask. that information was invaluable and objectively saved many civilian lives.
    Last edited by cpwill; 11-20-10 at 04:58 PM.

  9. #409
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Amnesty International wants Bush prosecuted for his roll in waterboarding. One of the defenses of Bush I have come across is that torture is when used to defend innocent lives. I will admit, it is an interesting question for me to explore.

    What is your opinion?
    Waterboarding is not "torture" according to legal standards. As far as whether they should have done it or not, non-uniformed foreign enemy terrorist combatants are not protected by US law or US foreign treaties, including the Geneva conventions. I have to go to the dentist tomorrow and have a couple caveties filled. Give me the choice, I'd much rather be waterboarded.
    Get informed: UNICEF foreign adoption policy is killing orphans and the US gives $132 million to UNICEF every year. Stop the madness.
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  10. #410
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Does defense justify torture?
    Of course not. Even asking the question is irresponsible - you might as well ask if genocide is acceptable in "defense."

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