View Poll Results: Does defense justify torture?

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    37 48.68%
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Thread: Does defense justify torture?

  1. #391
    Meh...
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Resist the gov. View Post
    I would say that in this case that is a poor excuse because i highly doubt torturing detainees has saved any American lives nor have i seen any evidence of this. not to mention that i do not believe terrorism to be that big of a threat since the media has totally blown it out of proportion , and when you talk to returning soldiers this is evident.
    It depends on what you consider a threat.
    Last edited by MSgt; 11-14-10 at 03:55 PM.

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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Anybody know where to get estimates on total number of active armed jihadists on the globe? I remember a source that cited the US govt put it in the thousands. Possibly not even over 4-5 digits. Active terrorists infiltrating foreign territories is remarkably lower, too.

  3. #393
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Anybody know where to get estimates on total number of active armed jihadists on the globe? I remember a source that cited the US govt put it in the thousands. Possibly not even over 4-5 digits. Active terrorists infiltrating foreign territories is remarkably lower, too.
    Numbers aren't the problem.

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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Oh... what is the problem then...?

  5. #395
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Oh... what is the problem then...?
    The immature smiley face suggests that you are prepared to engage in another drunken display, but I'm going to take a chance that you are going to behave this time and play nice....


    How many did it take to screw up a UN mission in Somalia? How many did it take to blow up embassies? A military barracks? A military ship? How many on 9/11? Not many. The point is that since the era of independence in the Middle East, the amount of religious extremist organizations have been exponentially growing. What people are not usually aware of is that, despite their preached hatred towards the West, an overwhelming amount of their violence is directed towards their fellow Muslim. However, our willingness to ignore these groups one attack after another has resulted into one of the most devistating terrorist attack in history (9-11). 9-11 was their way of forcing us to pay them attention and given how every attack since 1993 has been worse than the last, there was no reason to believe that 9-11 would be the last.

    The problem is not so much the individual numbers. It is the mass organizations that have graduated into international terrorism with support bases inside the failing civilization of the Middle East and inside areas of Europe. Al-Queda (merely one among hundreds) have based themselves in Sudan, then Afghanistan, tried to in Iraq, and now in Pakistan. With their locations in Asia and Africa wrecked, they seek the sea of Islamic radicalism too ignorant to rise above their prescriptions for safety. Their international weapons of choice have been air planes. Given half a chance, a dirty nuclear bomb would be the ultimate weapon for their unwinnable religious campaign. You see, they (meaning the intelligent ones) have no illusions of victory. They merely wish to wage the war. With Pakistan possessing nuclear bombs, Iran seeking nuclear bombs, and Arab governments looking to keep up, we are looking at a probably Cold War in the Middle East. Launching will not be the problem here. Merely handing one over to a terrorist organization for delivery will do. People may say, "Let them blow each other up!" But mushroom clouds tend to cross borders and regions. And how much better would these zealots have served God if instead of a couple planes in New York they had a bomb? The world's technology has gotten far too deadly for us to keep ignoring failing regions full of terrorist organizations who can't even keep their complaints straight.
    Last edited by MSgt; 11-14-10 at 05:01 PM.

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  6. #396
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by winston53660 View Post
    Sometimes laws should be broken.
    OK.. Agree.. Since we think so? I think we can all solve the overpopulated prisons problem right now: open the doors and let em out.

    I mean if we support torture we should just go ahead and empty out DEATH ROW. Who cares as sometimes laws are made to be broken. YHeeee Hawww!

    I think I am gonna mosey on down to the Wal-Mart and get me some beer, flat screeen tv and snacks. Cause I need it.
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  7. #397
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    so - unless you don't value honesty - you are willing to violate your principles.



    no, it's not; what we are discussing here is a matter of competing values. no one is claiming that torture is a moral positive, or even morally neutral.



    i'm aware of that, more aware i think than you are. you've never had to help provide medical aid to a torture victim. (well. 'victim'. more like counter-recipient.) someone needs to keep reminding you guys that in some cases the alternative is lots of dead children. murdered children. and someone needs to keep reminding you that as far as ethics are concerned, you are just as responsible for the results of your inaction as you are for the result of your action.
    Funny how some think it's okay to lie to save a child, yet stop short of torture to save one. I guess there is a limit to how much they value children.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
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  8. #398
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Its not a false dichotomy, it folllows from a situational given.
    The statement is not made in the context of tortuing all terrorist everywhere on the chance thatthey might know about such a thing, but specific terrorists in a specific situation where they do.
    It is false dichotomy since the scenario given has only two allowed answers. Torture the terrorist or allow NYC to blow up. It assumes there are no other valid methods by which NYC can be prevented from being nuked. That's what makes it false dichotomy. Perhaps there are many other methods to do so. There are a lot of assumptions made in the "Torture a terrorist or NYC blows up" false dichotomy including that the authorities have a terrorist with pertinent information on the disarming of the bomb in question, that there is no other way to disarm the bomb, that you can get reliable information from said terrorist under duress, etc. It's not enough to make generalized torture policy off of. How many innocent people get tortured? How much viable information comes out of torture? Of course we most likely would never have access to the full statistics as I'm sure much of it is classified. Still the point remains. There are well too many uncertainties involved with any actual terrorist case and the situations under which the false dichotomy is presented is one of low probability.
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  9. #399
    global liberation

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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    I forget the context, but I think I was being picky and objecting that the torture could fail in addition to objecting to context.

  10. #400
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It is false dichotomy since the scenario given has only two allowed answers. Torture the terrorist or allow NYC to blow up. It assumes there are no other valid methods by which NYC can be prevented from being nuked. That's what makes it false dichotomy. Perhaps there are many other methods to do so.
    okay, but now you are ignoring probabilities.

    waterboard the prisoner: 98% chance he will tell you in time

    pretty-please the prisoner: 1% chance he will tell you in time

    offer to bribe the prisoner: 5% chance he will tell you in time

    search NYC: 5% chance of finding it, with a 0.5% chance of finding and disarming it

    search NYC while ordering an evacuation: 2.5% chance of finding the bomb, 100% chance of mass-panic, riots, killings, etc


    nobody who actually takes seriously defending the lives, liberty, and property of the American people is going to refuse to waterboard a terrorist on those odds.

    It's not enough to make generalized torture policy off of.
    that is certainly true. but we are not talking about general policy; we are talking about specialty cases.

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