View Poll Results: Does defense justify torture?

Voters
76. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    37 48.68%
  • No

    25 32.89%
  • Other

    8 10.53%
  • Rootabega

    6 7.89%
Page 3 of 41 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 410

Thread: Does defense justify torture?

  1. #21
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    But then again, we have to accept the political reality that dictates that one group must do his best to improve his current standing and diminish that of his enemies or competition. Whoever wins the rhetorical, political, or military competition gets to dictate terms.

    All of this is messy. I think what I have myself reverted to is, of course, a deeply flawed resolution (though, which way is not incredibly flawed?) from first response onward.
    1) Rhetorical beauty
    2) Self-preservation
    3) Dominate the message abroad
    I guess my biggest problem with this is that it goes against our traditions (all men are created equal) and applies different standard to different groups in an effort to preserve our traditions. Its like a fiscal conservative's complaint against Bush who started the bailouts in an effort to preserve capitalism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Not necessarily. Otherwise, we could have all agreed that the Soviet Union's treatment of various demographics was completely justified. But deep down, there is something in us to revert to us vs. them. Our reliance upon our rhetoric of human rights and our democratic principles perhaps helps prevents the likelihood of extreme measures. The problem is identifying when we have gone to the extreme.
    Sorry, I deleted my comment when I saw that you updated yours in order to expand it in accordance with your update. The same thoughts are expressed in response to the previous quote though.

    So, there is a balance to be struck? It is ok to have some different standards as long as they are not too extreme? Is that a correct understanding of your stance?

    What would you say to me as someone who does not have an us vs them instinct, except when it comes to my family and friends and only in dangerous circumstances? (I have no problem telling my friends when they are being idiots for example). My personal opinion here is that you are right, but some people feel that instinct much more strongly than others do for whatever reason.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 11-11-10 at 02:55 PM.

  2. #22
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:51 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,703

    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    That's what happens to me, as I have said before. I go "oh, I should put this in", and then by that time, someone responds to portions of the post but not others and it just gets confusing thereafter. I'm messed up that way.

    Anyways, I always liked the notion of the balance, but just what that balance is is difficult to arrive at. I have accepted that some issues just are not fun to deal with, and thus may require a less than savory response-so long as we do maintain a great deal of consistency elsewhere. This is why I have a problem listening to people espouse logical fallacies verbatim to refute someone's response as if it really approaches the issue in a meaningful manner. The human experience is not consistent with logic, but it can sashay in its direction.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  3. #23
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    That's what happens to me, as I have said before. I go "oh, I should put this in", and then by that time, someone responds to portions of the post but not others and it just gets confusing thereafter. I'm messed up that way.
    I think we are both slow and deep thinkers, so its going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Anyways, I always liked the notion of the balance, but just what that balance is is difficult to arrive at. I have accepted that some issues just are not fun to deal with, and thus may require a less than savory response-so long as we do maintain a great deal of consistency elsewhere. This is why I have a problem listening to people espouse logical fallacies verbatim to refute someone's response as if it really approaches the issue in a meaningful manner. The human experience is not consistent with logic, but it can sashay in its direction.
    I will admit, I have some thinking to do. I tend to derive my principals solely from logic, however, as you have brought human nature into the equation, I need to reflect on that as it is something I had not considered.

  4. #24
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:51 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,703

    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    What would you say to me as someone who does not have an us vs them instinct, except when it comes to my family and friends and only in dangerous circumstances? (I have no problem telling my friends when they are being idiots for example). My personal opinion here is that you are right, but some people feel that instinct much more strongly than others do for whatever reason.
    I would say that that person might be incredibly rare, indeed. If they feel it with their friends and family, but not with their nation, and have trouble seeing that...I would ask that they use their conceptual imagination to expand it to that so as to better identify with the perspectives of our leaders as well as a great many of our citizens.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  5. #25
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    I would say that that person might be incredibly rare, indeed. If they feel it with their friends and family, but not with their nation, and have trouble seeing that...I would ask that they use their conceptual imagination to expand it to that so as to better identify with the perspectives of our leaders as well as a great many of our citizens.
    Ultimately, I believe nationalism comes out of our primitive desire to protect the tribe. That instinct is more strongly expressed in some than others. This is a stereotype, but I think it generally applies, liberals tend to express that instinct less strongly than conservatives.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 11-11-10 at 03:09 PM.

  6. #26
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:51 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,703

    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    In some instances it is liberalism or conservatism, however, I think of it in terms of the position the person is charged with. A leader, should hopefully, look at his position as defending or expanding the interests of his people. Then, you know, you could look at whether or not said interests are a good thing for everyone else or whatever instead of just a small portion of humanity, but I think you get the gist of what I mean.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  7. #27
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    In some instances it is liberalism or conservatism, however, I think of it in terms of the position the person is charged with. A leader, should hopefully, look at his position as defending or expanding the interests of his people.
    Yes, I agree that is within the job description for our president.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Then, you know, you could look at whether or not said interests are a good thing for everyone else or whatever instead of just a small portion of humanity, but I think you get the gist of what I mean.
    Ideally, the president should be doing what is best for the US and only concern himself with the welfare of another nation if it helps ours or at the very least does not inhibit our welfare in any way. However, we must also be reasonable. If doing disasterous harm to the welfare of another nation is the best way to promote ours, I do not think the leader would be doing the job correctly if that course of action is persued.

  8. #28
    Guru
    repeter's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    California
    Last Seen
    07-15-14 @ 12:06 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    3,445

    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    This all takes for granted the assumption that torture is a useful means of acquiring information.
    This assumption should be considered first before the question of its use.

    for thought
    http://www.fas.org/irp/dni/educing.pdf
    https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...formation.html
    https://www.cia.gov/library/center-f...nformation.pdf
    I'm not expert on interrogation techniques, but theres seems to be an inherent problem with torturing. The most obvious problem is that the person being tortured might lie about knowing something to make the torture stop. Its much more effective to use other means to get information from a prisoner. Maybe if we stipulate that a prisoner has crucial information, then we could in a few circumstances justify torture, but those stipulations don't really apply to real life.
    Veni. Vidi. Vici.
    -Gaius Julius Caesar
    The Only Thing to Fear is Fear Itself.
    -Franklin Delano Roosevelt

  9. #29
    Angry Former GOP Voter
    Fiddytree's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Last Seen
    Today @ 03:51 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    25,703

    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Yes, I agree that is within the job description for our president.



    Ideally, the president should be doing what is best for the US and only concern himself with the welfare of another nation if it helps ours or at the very least does not inhibit our welfare in any way. However, we must also be reasonable. If doing disasterous harm to the welfare of another nation is the best way to promote ours, I do not think the leader would be doing the job correctly if that course of action is persued.
    The other thing is that on the other side of the same coin, the leader knows that other nations will use their power to the best of their abilities to promote themselves and possibly try to neutralize the influence or power of another party if it serves their interests. Which is why I kind of intended to not only include the Presidents and Prime Ministers, but all of the representatives of an executive or main policy decision-making body, including a State's UN ambassadors.

    That being said, I think this is why much of the discussion of torture is lacking nuance. For conservatives, it can be seen as strictly a means of protecting us, for liberals and foreigners, it can be seen strictly through the lens of the United States acting immorally.
    Last edited by Fiddytree; 11-11-10 at 03:30 PM.
    Michael J Petrilli-"Is School Choice Enough?"-A response to the recent timidity of American conservatives toward education reform. https://nationalaffairs.com/publicat...-choice-enough

  10. #30
    Doesn't go below juicy
    tacomancer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Cleveland
    Last Seen
    05-20-16 @ 02:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    31,781

    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    I agree the nuance is not present. That was one of my goals for starting this thread. My hope was that this could be discussed in an adult manner instead of the usual BS that stands for discourse around here. In fact, I should have started this thread in our super secret location since it will be tarded up sooner or later.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 11-11-10 at 03:44 PM.

Page 3 of 41 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •