View Poll Results: Does defense justify torture?

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    37 48.68%
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Thread: Does defense justify torture?

  1. #251
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Amnesty International wants Bush prosecuted for his roll in waterboarding. One of the defenses of Bush I have come across is that torture is when used to defend innocent lives. I will admit, it is an interesting question for me to explore.

    What is your opinion?
    The question is too broad, and unconditional. No doubt you phrased it like that on purpose, typical for a liberal.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  2. #252
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    One of my biggest obstacles is that I have trouble finding a universal standard. We prosecuted the Japanese for waterboarding in WW2 for example and if (big if, but lets go with it for the sake of argument) we had lost in Iraq or Afghanistan, would they have the right to prosecute us?
    They did way more than waterboarding.
    "It's not that I'm afraid to die, I just don't want to be there when it happens." Woody Allen.

  3. #253
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    This is such a stupid conversation. It's merely an exercise in philosophy. People are either so eager to smear America's face in the mud, that they are willing to stand next to the enemy, or they are so caught up in the exaggerations and lies that they feel that they have to defend an untruth. America's "great torture machine" of the 21st century comes down to a few individuals. Not the hundreds of thousands in Algeria by the French (of which no official [military or civilian] has ever been held accountable), not the millions of Europeans by the Germans, and not the hundreds of thousands of Africans by European colonizers, but a few individual religious extremists that can be named. Let's look at a few facts.....

    - On 20 July 2007, U.S. President George W. Bush signed an executive order banning torture during interrogation of terror suspects.

    - On 14 September 2007, ABC News reported that sometime in 2006 CIA Director Michael Hayden asked for and received permission from the Bush administration to ban the use of waterboarding in CIA interrogations, although a CIA spokesperson declined to discuss interrogation techniques, which he or she said "have been and continue to be lawful." The sources of this information were current and former CIA officials. ABC reported that waterboarding had been authorized by a 2002 Presidential finding.[130] On 5 November 2007, The Wall Street Journal reported that its "sources confirm... that the CIA has only used this interrogation method against three terrorist detainees and not since 2003.

    - Both houses of the United States Congress approved a bill by February 2008 that would ban waterboarding and other harsh interrogation methods, the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2008.

    - President Barack Obama banned the use of waterboarding and several other interrogation methods in January 2009.

    - Waterboarding - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    The "great torture machine" of the evil American empire comes down to a few waterboarded individuals and a mess of debate and exaggeration. Here are their names...

    1) Khalid Shaikh Mohammed
    2) Abu Zubayda
    3) Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri

    You are all free to look these angels of Islam up for yourselves. So where is this mass of Muslim victim so many critics imagine exists? Who are they? The rumor is that secret torture camps across Europe exists and that all GITMO captives are being "tortured." Surely there should be more than just the delicious rumors and drama. The exaggerations are so pathetic and so impractical that it is amazing that so many American people have offerred to lobotimize their own brains to tow the Democratic and Global Leftist lines. The rumor mill got so bad that we have behaved as if we should self-flaggilate if any Muslim captive had to ever smell our troop's bacon in the morning. Does it matter that it is mostly BS? Of course not. Our enemy only cares to produce the argument of our own stupid people to "prove" our evil and their mission's legitimacy. Way to go dumb asses. Applause, applause, applause. If it went towards damaging the hated Bush administration, Americans were all about the BS. And the rest of the global Left care only to smear America as always. Anybody notice how absolutely quiet the Democratic Party has become in regards to GITMO or the torture subject since President Obama took the throne? Of course not. After the Democratic Party whipped the masses into a partisan frenzy for their purposes, they left them to their confusions and radicalisms.

    We can all argue over what is right in a perfect world, but what have we actually done in the world we live in? All of the world can do as it pleases, without ramification, but the moment America proves less than perfect and crosses a line by a centimeter the world demands satisfaction? We are victims of our own moral pedestal. We are expected to be perfect by the global masses and since we are not, we are criticized for it. When does the international organizations begin condemning the truly guilty for torture? For genocide. For ethnic cleansing? Or for the political and social oppressions throughout the world? I wonder how the international organizations would react to America if it refused to build Mosques in New York, or stripped women of their scarves in public places, or demanded a certain group of people out of the country. But for three (for the sake of argument, let's go ahead and assume an unproven dozen more) waterboarded terrorists post 9/11 America gets to be worse than Germans and Frenchmen who proudly engineerd true torture from Algeria to Europe and politicial and social persecution towards Muslims. And certainly it supposed to make us worse than the ethnic persecutions, cleansings, and genocides throughout the Arab Middle East. What a pathetic hypocritical world.

    The debate alone implies truth to the exaggerations and unsubstantiated facts. It allows for others to cling to the assumptions and the falshoods. It allows others to get away with their use of it to legitmize their behaviors. And it unjustly smears an America that deserves better from the pieces of ****s that breath protected free air.
    Last edited by MSgt; 11-13-10 at 01:15 PM.

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  4. #254
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon W. Moon View Post
    Would it be effective to torture the children of captives?

    I think that I would break much more quickly if it was a question of my child being tortured than me being tortured.

    So, let's torture the children of terrorists and terrorist suspects.
    It works. Back in the eighties, a KGB agent was taken by a clan of gangsters in Lebanon. The next morning, the clan leader found a box in front of his door. Opening the box, he recognized the ear of a favorite nephew. The KGB agent was released before noon.
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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  5. #255
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Coronado View Post
    Actually, the idea that we as a nation should mindlessly proceed in either direction simply shows how alienated the extremes of both left and right have become from reality.
    Who said the procession was mindless - on either side?

  6. #256
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Not at all. Some of us have values that remain steadfast. When your values and ethics fluctuate with the wind, then your values, ethics and integrity are not very strong.
    again. how many children are you willing to kill through inaction? if you had to tell a white lie in order to save a childs' life, would you do it? if you had to break the law by speeding an injured person to the hospital in order to save their life, would you do it? but aren't you violating your integrity, your values? do you not believe in rule of law, in honesty?


    let us say that you are patrolling down a street to the local souq (this happened) and you see a blue bongo truck accelerate on a side-lane towards the patrol. now, reporting indicates that a blue bongo truck is going to be used in a suicide attack against coalition forces, and accelerating towards a patrol is not only against what everyone knows to be the rules, it's the first sign of an attack. you wave your flag, put off a pop-up; the guy keeps coming at you, even speeding up. now you can see that it's an old guy, and he seems to be arguing with a younger male in the front seat. so, it looks like an old guy driving a truck full of stuff to market, but it also looks like a VBIED getting ready to take out yourself, your patrol, and all the civilians in the market that you're in. all you can do to stop him at this point is to shoot him. but you don't know if he's a civilian, or a suicide bomber intent on producing mass-casualties. yeah, he seems to have his son in the seat, but AQI also had a habit of using kids as shields for that exact reason; they knew we tended not to suspect people with kids.

    so, do you shoot, and definitely kill a possibly innocent man? or do you not shoot, and possibly allow an attack that will definitely kill lots of innocent people?


    in the kind of war that we are in, we are blessed to have some blacks and whites (AQI tortures children as an intimidation tactic; they are evil and all deserve to die); but the vast majority of decisions in warfare are made in shades of grey, because you simply lack total information.


    end of story; we shot. everyone else in the squad zeroed in on the shot and fired as well. the truck stopped before it got within a kill radius of the people in the market. turned out the guy was just old and deaf; we blew a 60 year old man to pieces in front of his family, his son and wife's upper bodies were literally covered in pieces of him. right decision? wrong decision? who knows. it was the decision.

  7. #257
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by TacticalEvilDan View Post
    I do not love mere existence enough to permit someone else to sell my humanity up the river in exchange for my life.
    Whwn posed with two choises that violate the categorical imperative, one must make the choice that causes the least harm.

  8. #258
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    again. how many children are you willing to kill through inaction? [..]
    Secular humanists and atheists like to make consequentialist arguments like these. I find it nonsensical. If an action is morally wrong, then it is morally wrong, period, it doesn't matter how much utility an immoral action has, it simply must not be done.

  9. #259
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Who said the procession was mindless - on either side?
    You:
    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Yes -- that ANY consideration is given to the idea that we should NOT turture someone to stop a catastiphic attack on the US does indeed indeed indicate that we, as a nation, have fallen.
    Reading is fundamental.

    You may now commence the usual dissembling and equivocating.

  10. #260
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    The problem with letting the government torture is that well, you're letting the government torture. For all the bitching I hear about the government being incompetent when dealing with welfare, healthcare, guns, crime, drugs etc. I can't help but wonder why somebody would allow a body they feel is incompetent deal with something like torture. People don't think the federal government should handle marriage but they are willing to entrust it with torture?
    Last edited by Hatuey; 11-13-10 at 01:21 PM.
    I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality. - MLK

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