View Poll Results: Does defense justify torture?

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    37 48.68%
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Thread: Does defense justify torture?

  1. #211
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    No. Any country who normally would not torture first in an encounter would still not as we've not demonstrated a mentality to wilfully and repeatedly initiate torture in conflict. Any country who would torture first would likely have done so regardless of our actions in this war. What few possabilities fall in the gray fall on both sides as there may be some that are irrational and think we will torture so they do it, but there could also be ones that believe that if they torture we will and thus refrain.

    As a net, I think it would not put them in any more danger.
    Early days yet I'm afraid, the next major clash where US soldiers are captured will show what the consequences of torturing suspects are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I'd have no problem with us then keeping people captured on the battle field in lower conditions then we'd normally keep them to show that if you're going to treat our people poorly when you capture them you are condeming your own to similar, if not quite as gruesome, of a fate.
    Turning the situation around shows what I'm trying to explain - that taking such steps as torture puts your own personell at future risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    -- And as I said. "Good guys" when you're looking at black and white don't shoot people, bomb people, kill people. But we do. The "Good guy" lines moves when the "bad guys" ramp up.
    Maybe so, but what I mean is that there are a variety of other options within the legal bounds of warfare that can be used. There are dangers of sinking to the level of those you are fighting against - and I see no need to limit the military response of your own people when dealing with enemy combatants.

  2. #212
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    But this is false dichotomy. If we don't torture terrorists, a nuke goes off in NYC.
    Its not a false dichotomy, it folllows from a situational given.
    The statement is not made in the context of tortuing all terrorist everywhere on the chance thatthey might know about such a thing, but specific terrorists in a specific situation where they do.

  3. #213
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    There is no "Gray Area" when it comes to values, ethics and integrity.
    Say that after you've served in a war zone, and I'll believe you.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  4. #214
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    One of my biggest obstacles is that I have trouble finding a universal standard. We prosecuted the Japanese for waterboarding in WW2 for example and if (big if, but lets go with it for the sake of argument) we had lost in Iraq or Afghanistan, would they have the right to prosecute us?
    really, mega? americans don't commit crimes, we make the laws. so of course we shouldn't be prosecuted, but screw the japs, they deserved to be prosecuted.

    Originally Posted by johnny_rebson:

    These are the same liberals who forgot how Iraq attacked us on 9/11.


  5. #215
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    But this is false dichotomy. If we don't torture terrorists, a nuke goes off in NYC.
    It's not a false dichotomy, it's just a "dichotomy" created by the specific context of a hypothetical scenario. A million possibilities have been discarded to prove a point and the crux is presented. Anyway, the torture is not 100% guaranteed (I don't see where his statement guarantees success), so there is at least a third option (try and fail); it's a matter of the moral obligation to try to save the lives.

    The only actual dichotomy is "try or do not try", and it is a true dichotomy. Either you try torture or you don't, under terrible extreme circumstances. I believe "don't try it" is the immoral choice, given the hypothetical.
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-12-10 at 04:43 PM.

  6. #216
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by liblady View Post
    really, mega? americans don't commit crimes, we make the laws. so of course we shouldn't be prosecuted, but screw the japs, they deserved to be prosecuted.
    The Japanese waterboarded (and otherwise tortured) bona fide prisoners of war -- men captured in uniform bravely and openly serving their country. Terrorists are not such combatants. The neither deserve nor receive protection under the Geneva Convention.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  7. #217
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    Say that after you've served in a war zone, and I'll believe you.
    Sorry. Don't know about you, but my values don't change with my mood or the blowing of the wind.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

  8. #218
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Sorry. Don't know about you, but my values don't change with my mood or the blowing of the wind.


    ----------------

    Edit: Thought I'd add to this. Soldiers do things in the battlefield that break their hearts. That they must learn to live with long after the battle's done. They do them because they have to....to survive, to protect their comrades, to go home alive. It's not a question of values changing with your mood or the blowing of the wind.
    Last edited by MaggieD; 11-12-10 at 05:00 PM.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  9. #219
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    NO!!!

    It's in our constitution. We do not torture.
    perhaps you could cite the relevant artilcle and section? i can't seem to find it....

    I want the waterboarders charged with treason.
    well both your anger and disconnect from reality here definitely mark you as part of the moveon.org-strident-left

    In combating our enemy, we should not sink to their level.
    and how many children are you willing to kill for your belief that we shouldn't waterboard?

  10. #220
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by disneydude View Post
    Sorry. Don't know about you, but my values don't change with my mood or the blowing of the wind.
    maggie is right; that you would say that indcates you have precisely zero idea what you are talking about.

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