View Poll Results: Does defense justify torture?

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Thread: Does defense justify torture?

  1. #201
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    There's no crying. I didn't offer you a dilemma, I made a statement. If we abandon our principles to uphold the rights and liberties of the individual, we become like other despots whom had once ruled over their people. Not by the rights of their people, but by that which was defined to be right by the State. It's simply a true statement. And there was no Godwin appeal either. That was hyperbole on your part. I merely said that we'd be like other despots; which would be true. Despots do not rule by the rights of their people. You're trying to apply more significant meaning in order to make a dismissive statement.

    As I said, hyperbole and distortion. Come back if you want to argue your "rights for safety" ideal honestly instead of resorting to intellectually dishonest measures such as hyperbole and appeal to emotion.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #202
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    It's true! It's true!

    Except, you wrote "no better" not "like". Either way a comparison, the former more ridiculous.

    Backpedal all you want, I'm done until someone brings substance.

  3. #203
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    It's true! It's true!

    Except, you wrote "no better" not "like". Either way a comparison, the former more ridiculous.

    Backpedal all you want, I'm done until someone brings substance.
    It's not a backpedal. There is no significant difference between those two. We would not be better than any other system aligned against the rights of the individual if we were to engage in behavior and policy which is aligned against the rights of the individual. Once you've made the decision to engage in tyranny, you're on the same playing field as other tyrants.

    The fact remains, you haven't been able to back up your use of hyperbole and dishonesty. Nor have you successfully defended your "rights for safety" argument. And now you're running away. You didn't add anything substantial other than your own conjecture. Well at least we know the type of arguments we can expect in the future. Maybe they'll get better and have actual substance in the future. Maybe.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  4. #204
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Absolutely.
    While torture may be wrong, so is not doing everything you can do to, say, stop a nuke from going of in NYC. Tortuing one or two or twenty to save millions is a trade every Presdient better be willing to make - else he isn't fit for office.

  5. #205
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    It's not a backpedal. There is no significant difference between those two.
    "Like" is a similie, "no better than" is an equivalence (or worse). I'm not reading the rest.

  6. #206
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    NO!!!

    It's in our constitution. We do not torture. If you take an oath to defend that constitution, and then break that oath, you have committed a crime! I want the waterboarders charged with treason. In combating our enemy, we should not sink to their level.
    Liberté. Égalité. Fraternité.

  7. #207
    Banned Goobieman's Avatar
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paschendale View Post
    NO!!!
    It's in our constitution. We do not torture.
    It is?
    I searched the text and did not find the word torture.

    In combating our enemy, we should not sink to their level.
    Given the choice, you'd let a US city take a nuke, rather than torture someone?

  8. #208
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    "Like" is a similie, "no better than" is an equivalence (or worse). I'm not reading the rest.
    I didn't expect you to. I explained clearly the context in which I was using the words. But I don't expect that you would consider it. It's easier to use hyperbole and distortion than to read one's post and actually engage on an intellectual level.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #209
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    It's in our constitution. We do not torture.
    All kinds of constitutional rights are violated upon conviction of a serious crime. It's a matter of weighing the criminal's right to do it again (given no reaction) and the public's right to see the criminal suffers reprocussions. Raped and murdered a few dozen? Guess what? Right to liberty - gone. Demand absolute constitutional rights for everyone under all circumstances if you must, but that's anarchy.

    The US (and other countries) kill people (capital punishment) for FAR lesser crimes than the (three) mass murdering terrorists that it waterboarded. Go call for the heads of every individual executioner in the US before you worry too much about three cases of waterboarding that saved thousands of lives.

    Defend our constitution! Try all capital punishment state officials (and the guy who pulled the switch) for treason because they violated someone's constitutional right to life - that's plainly reasonable. And also charge anyone who arrested anyone ever, that's right to liberty and freedom of assembly violated. Treason. Arresting someone is treason because the right to freedom of assembly is in the consitution. Got it.

    Spare me your rhetoric, as you've obviously no clue regarding how law works (balancing individual rights against each other) or the oath. You got some kind of oath I can lecture you about?
    Last edited by ecofarm; 11-12-10 at 04:30 PM.

  10. #210
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Goobieman View Post
    Absolutely.
    While torture may be wrong, so is not doing everything you can do to, say, stop a nuke from going of in NYC. Tortuing one or two or twenty to save millions is a trade every Presdient better be willing to make - else he isn't fit for office.
    But this is false dichotomy. If we don't torture terrorists, a nuke goes off in NYC. I would say more to the point that some generalized system of torture is not a good thing. When you make the false dichotomy you assume that we have a terrorist who is in possession of key information and under duress will give us the truthful information necessary to prevent the attack. But it's a lot of assumptions to get to the point in which the nuke or torture dilemma becomes valid. If we operate under some generalized terms of torture, how many times will it be useful vs. not. How many times will you end up torturing an innocent vs. the terrorist with pertinent information?

    Because of the uncertainties involved, torture is rarely an effective and justified method of information extraction.
    Last edited by Ikari; 11-12-10 at 04:23 PM.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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