View Poll Results: Does defense justify torture?

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  • Yes

    37 48.68%
  • No

    25 32.89%
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Thread: Does defense justify torture?

  1. #181
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaggieD View Post
    The fallback position is that they're innocent? Why do we always believe the worst of our government? That is Conspiracy Theorism at its finest.
    Because the government has always been the party who had to prove its case. The individual is assumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Is this a new concept? If the government wants to throw someone in jail, they need to show that the individual did something worthy of being thrown in jail over. Otherwise, you're just randomly throwing people in jail. This is of great importance especially since folk like yourself are arguing in favor of torture. Essentially what you're saying is that people who are in GITMO must be there because they're a terrorist and thus can be tortured. But that statement is not based on any fact, there is no proof, no case has been presented. It's dangerous to allow government so much freedom. And we know there are plenty of innocent people in GITMO. The real question should be, how many actual terrorists are there?
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  2. #182
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    It's at this point a philosophical issue, if some computer scours through my data searching for hot patterns or whatever I dont really care. No human sees it. I hope.
    This is very much related to the "If you're not doing anything wrong, then you don't have anything to worry about" excuse for expansion of government power against the rights and liberties of the People. The computer doesn't scour through your data. Someone has to program it to do so. And if that someone is government agent, then they need to get a warrant. There can be no allowance for arbitrary surveillance and recording of data, even though the government does do it. It should be resisted at all points.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  3. #183
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Hrrm. I was under the impression it was basically a massive cluster of computers and hardrives that just looked for proper patterns in internet postage and communication to identify possible threats. The job doesnt seem humanly possible.

  4. #184
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    So.... who knows what.... since we've only waterboarded a few... what type of torture are we using on the rest. Apparently CPwill has seen torture 'work' but hell, for all we know this thread threatens his livelihood if he were to divulge more
    the IP's did it; generally they would hang an AQI guy from the cieling by his arms and use whips to peel the skin off of his back.

    one night about 50 or so IP's showed up outside the FOB and told us we needed to come with them on a raid. we had some questions about the intel they were working on, and in the course of the conversation it came out that they had basically caught a guy working on a VBIED, and had beaten him until he had given up a couple of locations. so, we went to the compound they had brought up. Inside we found a a full sized-dump truck IED. the walls had been weakened at key points to funnel the explosion into particularly sized shrapnel, and the back had been filled with shape charges made out of 50-gallon drums. combined with that were a couple of suicide-motorcycles. turned out the plan was to detonate the nuke at the ECP next to the FOB, collapsing the wall and the COC (where I worked), and then zip in the morotcycles to target the reaction and ensure that the command element (of which I was a part) was taken out. I'm a 0351 by trade, so I figured out the net explosive weight of what they were planning to hit us with - it was about 8 times the size of the explosion that took down the federal building in oklahoma city. had they pulled that attack off, a good 1/3rd of the Company would probably have been toast.

    I had a beautiful woman and a wonderful baby boy waiting on me to get back. I'm very glad they whipped that punk until he squeaked. it saved alot of lives.
    Last edited by cpwill; 11-12-10 at 11:16 AM.

  5. #185
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Fair enough.

  6. #186
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    Because the government has always been the party who had to prove its case. The individual is assumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. Is this a new concept? If the government wants to throw someone in jail, they need to show that the individual did something worthy of being thrown in jail over. Otherwise, you're just randomly throwing people in jail.
    I'm sorry, but POWs (far more protected than terrorists) aren't given trials to prove they're POWs. They're thrown in the slammer for the duration.

    This is of great importance especially since folk like yourself are arguing in favor of torture. Essentially what you're saying is that people who are in GITMO must be there because they're a terrorist and thus can be tortured. But that statement is not based on any fact, there is no proof, no case has been presented. It's dangerous to allow government so much freedom. And we know there are plenty of innocent people in GITMO. The real question should be, how many actual terrorists are there?
    I am not in favor of torture. I do not believe that waterboarding rises to that level. Our own soldiers in SERE training are subjected to far more unpleasant experiences than we've subjected Gitmo detainees. To call waterboarding torture is to denigrate the real thing. McCain was tortured. A POW caught in his soldier uniform and tortured. The North Vietnamese tortured American POWs mercilessly. A few lived to tell of it. Three years at the Hanoi Hilton brought healthy young men from 200# to 120# as their captives gave them just enough food so their own bodies wouldn't digest themselves. Do not denigrate those experiences by calling waterboarding torture.
    The devil whispered in my ear, "You cannot withstand the storm." I whispered back, "I am ​the storm."

  7. #187
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Hrrm. I was under the impression it was basically a massive cluster of computers and hardrives that just looked for proper patterns in internet postage and communication to identify possible threats. The job doesnt seem humanly possible.
    the trick with that becomes that any search criteria can be entered in.

  8. #188
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    If a man comes at me with a gun, and I have a gun, I may choose not to draw it out of principle but I am stupidly putting myself at a disadvantage. If however I am protecting my family and choose to act in such a manner not only am I being foolish but I am being irresponsible as I'm willfully putting myself at a disadvantage which needlessly further endangers those I am supposed to be protecting.
    Very true, and sensible. You may remember this little gem from a few years ago:

    The Difference Between Liberals, Conservatives and Texans

    Situational Issue:

    You're walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children. Suddenly, a dangerous looking man with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, raises the knife, and charges. You are carrying a Glock .40 and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family.

    What do you do?

    ----------------------------
    Liberal Answer:

    Well, that's not enough information to answer the question!
    Does the man look poor or oppressed?
    Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack?
    Could we run away?
    What does my wife think?
    What about the kids?
    Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand?
    What does the law say about this situation?
    Does the Glock have an appropriate safety built into it?
    Why am I carrying a loaded gun and what kind of message does this send to society and my children?
    Is it possible he'd be happy with just killing me?
    Does he definitely want to kill me or would he just be content to wound me?
    If I were to grab his knees and hold on, could my family get away while he was stabbing me?
    This is all so confusing!
    I need to debate this with some friends for a few days to try to come to a conclusion.

    --------------------------
    Conservative Answer:

    BANG!

    ---------------------------
    Texan's Answer:

    BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click... (sounds of reloading).
    Wife: "Sweetheart, he looks like he's still moving, what do you kids think?"
    Son: "Mom's right Dad, I saw it too..."
    BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! click.
    Daughter: "Nice group, Daddy! Were those the Winchester Silver Tips?"
    "We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution."
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  9. #189
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ikari View Post
    I'm not going to accept one infringement of rights to avoid another.
    That's irrational. The basis of our law and judicial system is the infrinment of some rights to protect others. A simple example: restricting protest to certain zones and only when authorized by the city - this restricts the right to free speech and demonstration in order to preserve public safety.

    Again, the above quote is irrational.

  10. #190
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    When you adopt the tactics of your enemies to beat your enemies....yes, you might win the battle, but at what cost? I, for one, am not willing to sacrifice our values and integrity to win a war.
    <font size=5><b>Its been several weeks since the Vegas shooting.  Its it still "Too Early" or can we start having the conversation about finally doing something about these mass shootings???​</b></font>

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