View Poll Results: Does defense justify torture?

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Thread: Does defense justify torture?

  1. #151
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    No it's not... if it were treason alot of people would've been whisked away into camps for isolation.
    I'm no traitor this is a free society.
    That's ripe coming from a kiwi.
    What kindof Bodhi are you?
    An American one...

    Excellent question grasshopper,
    None of them have had to engage us in assymetric warfare to the degree that say, palestine fights Israel.
    So only those that engage in assymetric warfare engage in terrorism and prolonged hatred?

    They were some of the worlds greatest economic powers before, their economic strength benefitted us in trade, don't think it was out of some great amount of benevolence that we did this.
    And the ME has the worlds largest and most developed oil reserves... still economics.

    You're knowledge of human affairs is limited, spunky one.
    Not really. Use all the cute little adjectives you like, as a student and teacher of history, I understand enough and one benign comment doesn't change anything... The USA will not stay their forever, and we are already leaving. Will we still influence things there? Most likely. Will our military return someday? Perhaps. Will we leave a small force there? Maybe, but I doubt it will be there long, and it will be in a support and training capacity if that... It is a big issue, and to denounce my, or others knowledge based off of one teeny comment is just darn silly. Darn silly I tell you!

    You mean banning what they deem to be a sign of their religion through fear and misunderstanding? Hell why do they want to kill us, we only showed them we're wiling to burn their holy books despite the fact they are more judaic than christianity.
    Burning a book, even a Holy one, justifies killing people. Gotchya...
    Banning oppressive clothing deserves a internation threat to the citizens of an entire nation. Sounds reasonable...

    Sorry man, I had no idea that I was sounding so ridiculous!

    Fighting a losing battle they are... but that is the nature of the battlefield god has bestowed upon earth.
    Or the one that man has chosen to engage in... free will was god's girt, right?

    Also... I sense a little of the dark side in you.
    Of course. It balances the good. I can be very dark if the situation merits it...
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  2. #152
    Meh...
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Hah you said sophomoric... anyways, I'm glad you can leave the thread with a 'face up my own ass so far I think Im winning' attitude. I should drink and post more often it def. puts the fire in me.
    Maybe if you started thinking of these discussions as a means of expanding your knowledge rather than something to "win" you would be more open to learn things.
    Last edited by MSgt; 11-11-10 at 09:55 PM.

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  3. #153
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Punching someone is bad. But if someone is trying to punch me I will punch them back and try to punch them harder.

    Stabbing someone is bad. But if someone is trying to stab me I will pull out a knife and try to slice them far more then they slice me.

    Shooting someone is bad. But if someone pulls out a gun and tries to shoot me I'll be pulling mine and trying to put the bullet in them before they put on in me.

    War is an individual battle scaled up to monumental size. We must be mindful of our moral upper hand to establish our difference with the enemy not because of THAT enemy but because of future potential enemies. If we gain a reputation of initiating certain actions then our enemies will go into a situation with us with the understanding of those things as the baseline.

    However, if we let the enemy dictate where the aggressive level is going to be set....and then we rise to play the game at that level as best as possible with keeping with the generalized morals we hold...then we are fighting intelligently. However, if we handcuff ourselves more than is necessary when the enemy obviously is not fighting with similar handcuffs then frankly we are doing a disservice to the people we protect.

    If a man comes at me with a gun, and I have a gun, I may choose not to draw it out of principle but I am stupidly putting myself at a disadvantage. If however I am protecting my family and choose to act in such a manner not only am I being foolish but I am being irresponsible as I'm willfully putting myself at a disadvantage which needlessly further endangers those I am supposed to be protecting.

    There is still ways to engage a war on the terms your opponents set while still remaining the high ground. The fact you do not initiate it helps. However, take other situations. Full Scale War where the other side is grossly bombing civilian areas without care for the population, we bomb but give full warning prior to it that we're going to be or we aim for areas of lower civilian causalities. The other side is brutally and excruciatingly torturing our people physically as well as mentally in hopes of information and simply to punish them? We do less brutal forms of strenuous interrogation/torture to a significantly smaller amount specific only when we have legitimate and reasonable belief that they have potentially actionable information that needs to be extracted in a short amount of time. Etc.

    To me, it is unrealistic and unacceptable to handcuff yourself when you are charged with protecting someone. Part of that protection is upholding the principles and morals of those you are protecting, but you do that only to the point where it is reasonable. When the enemy ramps up what is acceptable in the terms of how the war will be conducted on their side they create a situation where the handcuffs must be loosened or come off.

  4. #154
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Good guys don't torture. And good guys wouldn't have to in the first place.
    This basically sums up my belief.

    The ends justifies the means if you're a country like China, or the former USSR, but the U.S. is supposed to stand for more. The issue of whether or not something like waterboarding is "torture" is not as important as the U.S. betraying its own supposed values.

  5. #155
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    An American one...
    Why do you engage in wordly allegiances?

    So only those that engage in assymetric warfare engage in terrorism and prolonged hatred?
    States do it as well.

    And the ME has the worlds largest and most developed oil reserves... still economics.
    To argue your own point I would say "Still the grace of american hegemony". The economic situation of the nations we have conquered is for another thread.


    Not really. Use all the cute little adjectives you like, as a student and teacher of history, I understand enough and one benign comment doesn't change anything... The USA will not stay their forever, and we are already leaving. Will we still influence things there? Most likely. Will our military return someday? Perhaps. Will we leave a small force there? Maybe, but I doubt it will be there long, and it will be in a support and training capacity if that... It is a big issue, and to denounce my, or others knowledge based off of one teeny comment is just darn silly. Darn silly I tell you!
    I don't mean to insult you, I was being condescending. :wave:

    Burning a book, even a Holy one, justifies killing people. Gotchya...
    People have been pardoned from murder in courts over cultural considerations. Does it justify it? No. To a Muslim who believes and has for thousands of years that the book emits the spirit of god and is an extension and manifestation of him in the physical universe. Well. Id expect you to get killed and sort-of stand by and say "Wasn't me dood"

    Banning oppressive clothing deserves a internation threat to the citizens of an entire nation. Sounds reasonable...
    Never said terrorists were particularly reasonable.

    Sorry man, I had no idea that I was sounding so ridiculous!
    You don't

    Or the one that man has chosen to engage in... free will was god's girt, right?
    Hmm... so what are we doing with that big ol military?


    Of course. It balances the good. I can be very dark if the situation merits it...
    Me too -_- how to escape this...

  6. #156
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    MSgt, it's not that your new sig is front heavy, it's that the dust cover is still open.

    Come on Marine, I'm National Guard and I know better than that
    Last edited by Jerry; 11-11-10 at 10:56 PM.

  7. #157
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    -- There is still ways to engage a war on the terms your opponents set while still remaining the high ground. The fact you do not initiate it helps. However, take other situations. Full Scale War where the other side is grossly bombing civilian areas without care for the population, we bomb but give full warning prior to it that we're going to be or we aim for areas of lower civilian causalities. The other side is brutally and excruciatingly torturing our people physically as well as mentally in hopes of information and simply to punish them? We do less brutal forms of strenuous interrogation/torture to a significantly smaller amount specific only when we have legitimate and reasonable belief that they have potentially actionable information that needs to be extracted in a short amount of time. Etc.
    A willingness to torture has been demonstrated to the rest of the world.

    Relative to international treaties - do you think that willingness to use torture on enemy combatants has just shown that the US is prepared to walk down dark paths and in so doing, put your own military personell at risk in future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    --To me, it is unrealistic and unacceptable to handcuff yourself when you are charged with protecting someone. Part of that protection is upholding the principles and morals of those you are protecting, but you do that only to the point where it is reasonable. When the enemy ramps up what is acceptable in the terms of how the war will be conducted on their side they create a situation where the handcuffs must be loosened or come off.
    I also think your examples are problematic - the scenarios you propose fail when you think of some of the things the beheading fanatics carry out. You certainly aren't proposing that in response the US beheads terrorist fanatics (I'm going to ignore any facetious comments anyone else makes saying "damn right we should" or anything of that order)

    My answer to your scenario is simple kill operations - no need to descend to the same level, we are (as others have said) supposed to be the good guys.

  8. #158
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Thanks MSgt. I hope you never need to do that to me. Rarely do I read a thread and find someone else doing the dirtywork.

  9. #159
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Publicly, we should condemn it. Privately, we should practice it when necessary.

  10. #160
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite Chaos View Post
    A willingness to torture has been demonstrated to the rest of the world.

    Relative to international treaties - do you think that willingness to use torture on enemy combatants has just shown that the US is prepared to walk down dark paths and in so doing, put your own military personell at risk in future?
    No. Any country who normally would not torture first in an encounter would still not as we've not demonstrated a mentality to wilfully and repeatedly initiate torture in conflict. Any country who would torture first would likely have done so regardless of our actions in this war. What few possabilities fall in the gray fall on both sides as there may be some that are irrational and think we will torture so they do it, but there could also be ones that believe that if they torture we will and thus refrain.

    As a net, I think it would not put them in any more danger.

    I also think your examples are problematic - the scenarios you propose fail when you think of some of the things the beheading fanatics carry out. You certainly aren't proposing that in response the US beheads terrorist fanatics (I'm going to ignore any facetious comments anyone else makes saying "damn right we should" or anything of that order)
    Nope, them doing that to our captured individuals would not validate that for us. But I'd have no problem with us then keeping people captured on the battle field in lower conditions then we'd normally keep them to show that if you're going to treat our people poorly when you capture them you are condeming your own to similar, if not quite as gruesome, of a fate.

    My answer to your scenario is simple kill operations - no need to descend to the same level, we are (as others have said) supposed to be the good guys.
    And as I said. "Good guys" when you're looking at black and white don't shoot people, bomb people, kill people. But we do. The "Good guy" lines moves when the "bad guys" ramp up.

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