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Does defense justify torture?

Does defense justify torture?

  • Total voters
    49
MSgt said:
Well I can answer this question. It's you that could not without my assistance.
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So you throw those names out there and then ask me who got tortured and when I point to the information that YOU posted, I can't answer the question for your assistance? :lol:

MSgt said:
The reason for this is that you are quite content running off of the assumptions, exaggerations and lies that have branded this nation as a tyrant. Torturous secret camps across Europe and GITMO depravities have all come down to nothing. Yet, the rumors and the assumptions persist.
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No, I'm running off the many distasteful things that this nation's government has done, then denied doing, then got caught doing.
 
cpwill said:
so no, you would not tell a white lie to save a childs' life.
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Lying isn't a sin in and of itself. There is a Biblical prohibition against telling malicious lies (bearing false witness), but nothing about "white lies." I would speculate that Jesus would strongly encourage telling a lie to save a child.

Torture, however, is another matter altogether.

Somebody needs to keep reminding you guys that bottom line is you are defending torture. Torture!
 
Harshaw said:
Oh, another fatal flaw in this thread . . .

Some are arguing, apparently, about making "torture" a policy, while others are talking about a "ticking bomb" situation. Not the same thing at all. This, too, goes back to the equivocal language in the original post.
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Good point Harshaw, we need to keep the argument straight.
 
Guy Incognito said:
Lying isn't a sin in and of itself. There is a Biblical prohibition against telling malicious lies (bearing false witness), but nothing about "white lies." I would speculate that Jesus would strongly encourage telling a lie to save a child.

Torture, however, is another matter altogether.

Somebody needs to keep reminding you guys that bottom line is you are defending torture. Torture!
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Right. They're talking about lining the walls with iron maidens. I hear that was in the black ops budget before Obama killed it.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
So you throw those names out there and then ask me who got tortured and when I point to the information that YOU posted, I can't answer the question for your assistance? :lol:
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Um...yes. It's very telling. Until I posted the three names among the tens of thousands that have been captured, everybody on this thread simply ran with the idea that America's torture machine was in full affect. And despite me posting the orders and laws of this nation banning waterboarding and torture for the last 4 years, you have insisted to be voicing against some tyrannical government that doesn't exist. Exaggeration, rumors, and deceit have and has always been extremism. It was me that had to offer the lot of you your own criticism. But even with these three being an exception part of this war and none since 2007, you still protest. For what?

TacticalEvilDan said:
No, I'm running off the many distasteful things that this nation's government has done, then denied doing, then got caught doing.
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You are behaving as if it is happening right before your eyes, which it isn't. The facts and history of this are clear. Without the asumptions and possibilities, you really don't have anything beyond a philosophical stage of right and wrong. Who was waterboarded this year? Last year? The year before it? Before that?
 
MSgt said:
Like what? Explain.
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You want me to explain to you how you did what you know you did, so that you can split hairs and lie some more?

No, thanks. This isn't the first time you've taken shots at me in a cowardly fashion, it's hardly a misunderstanding on my part.
 
Harshaw said:
Right. They're talking about lining the walls with iron maidens. I hear that was in the black ops budget before Obama killed it.
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All it takes is a rumor. Of course, without the Democratic Party gloryfying it maybe it won't spread so viciously. So there's hope.
 
MSgt said:
Um...yes. It's very telling. Until I posted the three names among the tens of thousands that have been captured, everybody on this thread simply ran with the idea that America's torture machine was in full affect.
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that was about where I joined the thread. Nice try.

MSgt said:
And despite me posting the orders and laws of this nation banning waterboarding and torture for the last 4 years, you have insisted to be voicing against some tyrannical government that doesn't exist.
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And despite the government's documented history of doing all manner of distasteful, illegal things, you're acting as if it's simply not believable that the government continues to do things it shouldn't be doing. :lol:

MSgt said:
You are behaving as if it is happening right before your eyes, which it isn't. The facts and history of this are clear. Without the asumptions and possibilities, you really don't have anything beyond a philosophical stage of right and wrong. Who was waterboarded this year? Last year? The year before it? Before that?
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I know exactly what my government is capable of doing, based on the portion of its history which has been revealed for public consumption. So do you, but if you want to obfuscate that's your choice.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
You want me to explain to you how you did what you know you did, so that you can split hairs and lie some more?

No, thanks. This isn't the first time you've taken shots at me in a cowardly fashion, it's hardly a misunderstanding on my part.
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I would like you to explain what you were so sensitive about so I may straighten you out. It's all black and white for al to see. Does anybody else see it? Because right now, I have no clue where your childish hostility is coming from. You've used "coward" three times now. And all the while you refuse to man up what you are frustrated about.
 
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MSgt said:
I would like you to explain what you were so sensitive about so I may straighten you out. Because right now, I have no clue where your childish hostility is coming from. You've used "coward" three times now.
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Case in point. :lol:

HAND
 
You win, MSgt.
 
TacticalEvilDan said:
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand that was about where I joined the thread. Nice try.
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It doesn't matter when you joined. You have still not offerred a "who" this whole time. I have been the only one. You've only offerred the exaggerated gripe. It's the same crap the Democratic Party ran with to get elected and the same crap the Global Left clung too to satisfy their resenments and hatreds. In the mean time, our enemies used this exaggeration to legitimize their identities as the victim.

TacticalEvilDan said:
And despite the government's documented history of doing all manner of distasteful, illegal things, you're acting as if it's simply not believable that the government continues to do things it shouldn't be doing. :lol:
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It is absolutely believable that our government is imperfect. We aren't the power we are because we cling to our moral pedestal all the time. But before you stand along side our enemies and our unfair and hypocritical international critics you really should be specific in your bitching. If you actually looked into it, you would find very little and certainly not enough to cut the legs off of our nation.

TacticalEvilDan said:
I know exactly what my government is capable of doing, based on the portion of its history which has been revealed for public consumption. So do you, but if you want to obfuscate that's your choice.
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Well, I know that my government is capable of dropping nuclear bombs. I know that my country is capable of killing a few to save a lot. The difference between you and I is that I won't pretend to be above the very thing that protects our life styles. In the end, you should be appreciative that in an imperfect and ruthless world our nation comes with moral rules and standards that are constantly criticized and tweaked into perfection. Stop your bitching. Nobody's being tortured. And if (when) the exception occurs you can feel good that it's not because of his ethnicity, religion, or color.
 
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TacticalEvilDan said:
Case in point. :lol:

HAND
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"Case in point"....a smiley face..... and then "hand?" What does this mean? You can't accuse me of hurting your feelings, call me a coward, and then avoid explaining your accusation.
 
Harshaw said:
Right. They're talking about lining the walls with iron maidens. I hear that was in the black ops budget before Obama killed it.
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You're being glib. Iron maidens aren't the only form of torture, but that is essentially what we're talking about here.

So yes, the analogy is valid. People who defend torture of GITMO detainees today are the same sort of people who were defending the Spanish Inquisition 500 years ago (from a moral standpoint).
 
Guy Incognito said:
So yes, the analogy is valid. People who defend torture of GITMO detainees today....
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And here it is! Who? Who in GITMO is tortured? Do you have any clue outside the rumors that even Democrats have grown bored of exaggerating about?

You people are so busy accusing or defending the idea of torture that you don't stop to acknowledge the facts or the reality of its existence. The "torture of GITMO detainees today" is a myth and an exaggerated lie. Always has been. These detainees are treated better than American prisoners across our nation.
 
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Guy Incognito said:
You're being glib. Iron maidens aren't the only form of torture, but that is essentially what we're talking about here.

So yes, the analogy is valid. People who defend torture of GITMO detainees today are the same sort of people who were defending the Spanish Inquisition 500 years ago (from a moral standpoint).
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Which Gitmo detainees have been tortured, and in what manner?
 
Hatuey said:
If the government is allowed to torture anyone, then it can torture anyone. Do you disagree or not? Citizenship is nothing more than a nuisance. Not an actual obstacle.
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You didnt answer the questions:
Dont you, as a rule, oppose the slippery slope argument?
Or is that just when it is convenient?
 
MSgt said:
Until I posted the three names among the tens of thousands that have been captured, everybody on this thread simply ran with the idea that America's torture machine was in full affect... It was me that had to offer the lot of you your own criticism. But even with these three being an exception part of this war and none since 2007, you still protest. For what?
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I'm glad you arrived and I don't want the job back, but before you arrived...

ecofarm said:
three people that the US waterboarded. "Torturing"...

The three times the US waterboarded...

Waterboard 3 internationally-well-known terrorists...
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ecofarm said:
three terrorists that the US waterboarded (if we are to consider that torture)...

three waterboardings...

a matter of public record).
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ecofarm said:
The US waterboarded three people, total,
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ecofarm said:
three times (for the US) since 9/11.
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ecofarm said:
the three times it has been used in reality by the US since 9/11.
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MaggieD said:
How far we've fallen as a nation?? We've never been more humane in warfare in the history of our country. In the history of our world. We do everything humanely possible to spare civilians lives, at the expense, I might add, of our own troops.

Please don't equate those who believe that waterboarding is not torture with those who chop off heads, use tasers on private parts, break arms and legs, cut off fingers and toes, hang people upside down, hang 'em by hands tied behind their backs. It's just not the same.

How far we've fallen as a nation is shown by how our politicians use war as a tool to garner votes.
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Nothing but rationalization and justification. We are either a nation that embraces torture or condemns it. You want to talk about degrees. That, my friend is nothing but rationalization.
 
I say we embrace it and sing songs of praise.
 
disneydude said:
We are either a nation that embraces torture or condemns it.
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False dichotomy.
A country need not "embrace" torture in order to use it when the situation dictates; a country can condemn torture as a matter of policy and still use it when the situation dictates.
Your absolute statements are writing checks that your argument can't cash.
 
Goobieman said:
You didnt answer the questions:
Dont you, as a rule, oppose the slippery slope argument?
Or is that just when it is convenient?
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The fallacy in your question is thinking that it's a slippery slope argument to begin with. It isn't. The government has already played around with the notion of giving itself the power to torture American citizens. Ever heard of the Wickersham Commission? It suggested that in order to enforce prohibition, the government should use force to extract information from American citizens.
 
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