View Poll Results: Does defense justify torture?

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  • Yes

    37 48.68%
  • No

    25 32.89%
  • Other

    8 10.53%
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    6 7.89%
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Thread: Does defense justify torture?

  1. #121
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    Don't know what you are talking about. This is not genocide. The "free" market and the international banking system has a lot of people in the third world screwed. No genocide has come from American hands since our extended pioneer days. Can we state the same for Europeans in the twentieth century as late as the 1990s? Or the Middle East or Africa or Asia? Like I stated, it's our morality that allows us to move on from mistakes never to repeat them.
    We didn't commit genocide out of a matter of geographical and economic privilege...

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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Amnesty International wants Bush prosecuted for his roll in waterboarding. One of the defenses of Bush I have come across is that torture is when used to defend innocent lives. I will admit, it is an interesting question for me to explore.

    What is your opinion?
    National defense justifies water-boarding.

  3. #123
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Iraq... afghanistan..

    Ima draw a 2d picture



    (america)--------------------(foreign navy)---------------------(Middle East)


    Place the foreign navy as accurately as possible on the scale.
    Executive branch:
    chief of state: President of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan Hamid KARZAI (since 7 December 2004); First Vice President Mohammad FAHIM Khan (since 19 November 2009); Second Vice President Abdul Karim KHALILI (since 7 December 2004); note - the president is both the chief of state and head of government
    head of government: President of the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan Hamid KARZAI (since 7 December 2004); First Vice President Mohammad FAHIM Khan (since 19 November 2009); Second Vice President Abdul Karim KHALILI (since 7 December 2004)
    cabinet: 25 ministers; note - ministers are appointed by the president and approved by the National Assembly
    (For more information visit the World Leaders website )
    elections: the president and two vice presidents elected by direct vote for a five-year term (eligible for a second term); if no candidate receives 50% or more of the vote in the first round of voting, the two candidates with the most votes will participate in a second round; election last held on 20 August 2009 (next to be held in 2014)
    election results: Hamid KARZAI reelected president; percent of vote - Hamid KARZAI 49.67%, Abdullah ABDULLAH 30.59%, Ramazan BASHARDOST 10.46%, Ashraf GHANI 2.94%; other 6.34%

    Legislative branch:
    the bicameral National Assembly consists of the Meshrano Jirga or House of Elders (102 seats, one-third of members elected from provincial councils for four-year terms, one-third elected from local district councils for three-year terms, and one-third nominated by the president for five-year terms) and the Wolesi Jirga or House of People (no more than 249 seats); members directly elected for five-year terms
    note: on rare occasions the government may convene a Loya Jirga (Grand Council) on issues of independence, national sovereignty, and territorial integrity; it can amend the provisions of the constitution and prosecute the president; it is made up of members of the National Assembly and chairpersons of the provincial and district councils
    elections: last held on 18 September 2010 (next election expected in 2015)
    election results: NA

    Judicial branch:
    the constitution establishes a nine-member Stera Mahkama or Supreme Court (its nine justices are appointed for 10-year terms by the president with approval of the Wolesi Jirga) and subordinate High Courts and Appeals Courts; there is also a minister of justice; a separate Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission established by the Bonn Agreement is charged with investigating human rights abuses and war crimes


    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/af.html

    Executive branch:
    chief of state: President Jalal TALABANI (since 6 April 2005); Vice Presidents Adil ABD AL-MAHDI and Tariq al-HASHIMI (since 22 April 2006); note - the president and vice presidents comprise the Presidency Council)
    head of government: Prime Minister Nuri al-MALIKI (since 20 May 2006); Deputy Prime Ministers Rafi al-ISSAWI (since 19 July 2008) and Rowsch Nuri SHAWAYS (since 11 January 2010)
    cabinet: Council of Ministers consists of 36 ministers appointed by the Presidency Council, plus Prime Minister Nuri al-MALIKI and Deputy Prime Ministers Rafi al-ISSAWI and Rowsch Nuri SHAWAYS
    (For more information visit the World Leaders website )
    elections: president elected by Council of Representatives (parliament) by a two-thirds majority vote to serve a four-year term (eligible for a second term)
    election results: President Jalal TALABANI reelected on 22 April 2006; vote count NA

    Legislative branch:
    unicameral Council of Representatives (325 seats; consisting of 317 members elected by a closed-list, proportional representation system and 8 reserved for minorities; members serve four-year terms)
    elections: last held on 7 March 2010 for an enlarged 325-seat parliament; next election to be held in 2014
    election results: Council of Representatives - percent of vote by party - Iraqi National Movement 25.9%, State of Law Coalition 25.8%, Iraqi National Alliance 19.4%, Kurdistan Alliance 15.3%, Movement for Change 4.4%, Tawafuq Front 2.7%, Iraqi Unity Alliance 2.9%, Kurdiatan Islamic Union 2.3%, Kurdistan Islamic Group 1.4%, number of seats by party - Iraqi National Movement 91, State of Law Coalition 89, Iraqi National Alliance 70, Kurdistan Alliance 43, Movement for Change 8, Tawafuq Front 6, Iraqi Unity Alliance 4, Kurdistan Islamic Union 4, Kurdistan Islamic Group 2, seats reserved for minorities 8; note - election results are preliminary

    Judicial branch:
    the Iraq Constitution calls for the federal judicial power to be comprised of the Higher Judicial Council, Federal Supreme Court, Federal Court of Cassation, Public Prosecution Department, Judiciary Oversight Commission and other federal courts that are regulated in accordance with the law


    https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/iz.html

    I see two independent nations here. We have army in many nations, are we occupying them all?

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  4. #124
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by SE102 View Post
    Iraq... afghanistan..

    Ima draw a 2d picture



    (america)--------------------(foreign navy)---------------------(Middle East)


    Place the foreign navy as accurately as possible on the scale.
    The problem here is that we occupied neither Iraq nor Afghanistan before 9-11. Of course, back then it was all about how we "occupied" Saudi Arabia despite the invitation by the government. Of course, before this they hated us for our support for Israel, despite not being a direct supporter until 1967. Of course, then there's always the Shah of Iran, which no Sunni cares about, which was replaced by Khomeini - a man they would regret quickly as he destroyed Islam within Iran's borders. Oh, but before this there's Sayyid Qutb's declarations (1950s) that the American "Christian" culture had turned its back on God and declared us the enemy of Islam.

    My point here is that "blame" is the narcotic of choice in the Arab Middle East. They will always have one as long as Islam is a religious and govermental mess in the Middle East.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
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  5. #125
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    I see two independent nations here. We have army in many nations, are we occupying them all?
    I never said such a thing, this does not negate the military involvement of the west in the middle east. Do you think we'd have the current situation in Iran without our involvement in the prior government?

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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    National defense justifies water-boarding.
    This isolated statement is 'fair'.

  7. #127
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Morals and ethics may indeed sometimes not be very helpful when it comes to efficiently defending your country. But I don't think the conclusion can be to throw it overboard.

    And as far as ethics go, there are a few things even small children get taught quickly that are not in order: For example, when a four year old is caught doing something bad, parents will soon teach him that "but he over there did worse!" is not an excuse. That's pretty basic. Another thing is that "the ends don't justify the means", because in theory, even the worst deeds can be justified with that reasoning, and morality and ethics become completely void. A little tricky, of course, it becomes when you have to weight one bad consequence against the bad consequences of breaking ethical standards when stopping it.

    MSgt, I understand where you are coming from, but I don't agree with you at all. Your points make a lot of sense, from a pragmatic point of view. But they are completely lacking any kind of ethical consideration or morals. There is just moral relativism and/or nihilism. You don't even bother anymore to be one of the good guys. It doesn't matter for you anymore what your country stands for or if it's good, it's all about defense, us or them, and self-defense is more existential than ethics. That's fine, I can respect that. But you have to see that ethics do play a role for most people in this world, and most of us want to belong to the good guys, even most of those who support torture under certain circumstances.
    Last edited by German guy; 11-11-10 at 08:24 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  8. #128
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    As far as Im concerned already monitoring all internet traffic and all cellular conversations through filters should be sufficient. The surveillance state and intelligence work alone should be more than enough to safeguard citizens without expenses to freedoms. These moralistic dilemmas shouldn't be in the first place.

  9. #129
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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I see two independent nations here. We have army in many nations, are we occupying them all?


    The problem is that western critics allow Islamic radicals to get away with their accusations and statements. By way of, they unwittingly choose enemy allegiance. According to the Muslim Brotherhood (and the countless radicals, extremists, and terrorists) Muslim Land is all the land conquered by the Rashidun Caliphate and the land conquered later under the Umayyad Caliphate. This territory extends into southern Europe as far as Spain. The joke today is that Afghanistan and Iraq are repercussions of this civilization's most loudest radical. Before 9-11 our "occupation" was merely a base in Saudi Arabia and one in Kuwait, which was at the invite of their governments.

    Of course, murdering Danish directors and issuing handy dandy fatwas towards Western authors for expressing themselves against Islam over the last few decades, is all the excuses many of them need, isn't it?

    No matter what, there's always an excuse. And as they continue to provoke us they will attain more excuses. Just like they did after 9-11. Help them fix the region and we solve our problems.

    MSgt
    Semper Fidelis
    USMC

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    Re: Does defense justify torture?

    Quote Originally Posted by MSgt View Post
    The problem is that western critics allow Islamic radicals to get away with their accusations and statements. By way of, they unwittingly choose enemy allegiance.
    Tee hee ur silly

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