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Thread: How much do you care about taxing income

  1. #31
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    Re: How much do you care about taxing income

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    The millionaire buys peace. Its value is incalculable.

    Although I don't strictly agree with the sentiment espoused.
    are you saying the lower classes will revolt if there isn't punitive taxation on the rich? didn't happen in 1920. Buying off rioters is stupid. SHooting them is the proper response



  2. #32
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    Re: How much do you care about taxing income

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    That statement sounds good on its surface, but when I really think about it, I run into some questions.

    1. Would those people be able to thrive without the additional support?
    2. Are there primary, secondary, and tertiery benefits to social assistance that we should be considering?
    3. What proof do we have that this arrangement is more or less optimal than a smaller government. Remember, pretty much all successful first world countries have a massive government and massive social programs.
    4. If benefits had to increase to make up the short fall, would these people even notice?
    1. For a great many of the infamous 47%, I'm sure any tax would be a sacrifice of sorts. But that's taxes are, a sacrifice we all make to fund the government that provides us with essential and/or valuable services in order to create a better society. In fact the whole notion of government is based on the idea of sacrifice. We sacrifice a portion of our personal sovereignty to government to preserve the rest of our sovereignty. And in my personal vision of how this would be implemented the bottom earners would pay a fairly minimal percentage. No more than 5%. Just something to get them in the game with the rest of us.

    2. I'm not advocating eliminating social assistance, and I don't think any other reasonable, realistic person here is either. But I think there is a real problem when you start to have two classes of people: folks who pay for entitlements and folks who recieve entitlements. It's not hard to see how this is a formula for abuse, especially if the second group were to ever become larger than the first.

    I think the following quotes are pretty succinct in summing up my issues with the current situation.

    "A democratic government is the only one in which those who vote for a tax can escape the obligation to pay it."

    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."

    -Alexis de Tocqueville
    3. Not sure how this relates to the issue of wanting everyone to pay some form of income tax, even if it is minimal. Perhaps you could clarify.

    4. You're probably not surprised to hear that I wouldn't be in favor of increasing benefits to make up the shortfall. But even if we did, the poor would still have an incentive to want to see spending kept at a minimum, since they're taxes would go down as spending goes down, giving them even more income.
    Slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison - Unknown.

  3. #33
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    Re: How much do you care about taxing income

    Really depends on how we define rich. If it means adding another bracket charging an extra 5% for millionaires, that's fine. If it means jacking the rake for $200k earners up by 5%, then hell 2 da naws.
    People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

  4. #34
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    Re: How much do you care about taxing income

    Quote Originally Posted by RightinNYC View Post
    Really depends on how we define rich. If it means adding another bracket charging an extra 5% for millionaires, that's fine. If it means jacking the rake for $200k earners up by 5%, then hell 2 da naws.
    I oppose a progressive income tax for several reasons

    the main one is buying the votes of non-tax payers or low bracket payers by promising them government benefits that increased top rates on the "rich" will have to pay for. Such a system is doomed to fail because the politicians have to keep bribing the lower classes with spending and appealing to class envy

    secondly the rich already pay too much even with a flat tax but at least a flat tax doesn't allow the masses to jack up taxes without feeling some pain and unless the masses feel some pain, they will never require the governmnet to spend less on them



  5. #35
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    Re: How much do you care about taxing income

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    1. For a great many of the infamous 47%, I'm sure any tax would be a sacrifice of sorts. But that's taxes are, a sacrifice we all make to fund the government that provides us with essential and/or valuable services in order to create a better society. In fact the whole notion of government is based on the idea of sacrifice. We sacrifice a portion of our personal sovereignty to government to preserve the rest of our sovereignty. And in my personal vision of how this would be implemented the bottom earners would pay a fairly minimal percentage. No more than 5%. Just something to get them in the game with the rest of us.
    Thats the libertarian notion of it. I think government is something humans create naturally and is in many ways instinctual for us. (even the most basic tribal society inevitably forms a government, even if it is a very simple one)

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    2. I'm not advocating eliminating social assistance, and I don't think any other reasonable, realistic person here is either. But I think there is a real problem when you start to have two classes of people: folks who pay for entitlements and folks who recieve entitlements. It's not hard to see how this is a formula for abuse, especially if the second group were to ever become larger than the first.
    In the end, any social assistance is going to mean that there will be people who get more than they give. That is what social assistance is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Psychoclown View Post
    I think the following quotes are pretty succinct in summing up my issues with the current situation.

    3. Not sure how this relates to the issue of wanting everyone to pay some form of income tax, even if it is minimal. Perhaps you could clarify.

    4. You're probably not surprised to hear that I wouldn't be in favor of increasing benefits to make up the shortfall. But even if we did, the poor would still have an incentive to want to see spending kept at a minimum, since they're taxes would go down as spending goes down, giving them even more income.
    My personal view is that social spending is ok, but going in debt for it isn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I oppose a progressive income tax for several reasons

    the main one is buying the votes of non-tax payers or low bracket payers by promising them government benefits that increased top rates on the "rich" will have to pay for. Such a system is doomed to fail because the politicians have to keep bribing the lower classes with spending and appealing to class envy

    secondly the rich already pay too much even with a flat tax but at least a flat tax doesn't allow the masses to jack up taxes without feeling some pain and unless the masses feel some pain, they will never require the governmnet to spend less on them
    Talking about killing off large segments of the population is a no-no (isn't that something that people accuse communists of?). Because, trust me, in a nonsocial assistance situation, we will be like we were in the 20s and the nasty things that were brewing.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 11-13-10 at 09:10 AM.

  6. #36
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    Re: How much do you care about taxing income

    Quote Originally Posted by megaprogman View Post
    Thats the libertarian notion of it. I think government is something humans create naturally and is in many ways instinctual for us. (even the most basic tribal society inevitably forms a government, even if it is a very simple one)



    In the end, any social assistance is going to mean that there will be people who get more than they give. That is what social assistance is.



    My personal view is that social spending is ok, but going in debt for it isn't.



    Talking about killing off large segments of the population is a no-no (isn't that something that people accuse communists of?). Because, trust me, in a nonsocial assistance situation, we will be like we were in the 20s and the nasty things that were brewing.
    I don't think a flat tax which still has the rich paying far far more than any objective concept of fair share or what they use is not going to lead to the entitlement addicts revolting. same with knocking the clinton tax hikes and the idiotic double taxation on dividends down to more reasonable levels. Maybe if we weaned people off of dependence on others to pay for them, the danger you speak of would lessen because the way things are going, the dems have to keep spending on their voters in order to try to win elections and the rich cannot keep up with that spending so one day a revolt probably will happen

    when the rich refuse or cannot pay yet another tax hike and the dems no longer can pander to millions of people who have grown up expecting such entitlements.

    If you don't have a bird feeder in the area you live in some birds will starve to death in very bad conditions or permanently leave the area. HOwever, if you put out a bird feeder for several years and then one day stop filling it, most of the birds in the area will starve to death



  7. #37
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    Re: How much do you care about taxing income

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtleDude View Post
    I don't think a flat tax which still has the rich paying far far more than any objective concept of fair share or what they use is not going to lead to the entitlement addicts revolting. same with knocking the clinton tax hikes and the idiotic double taxation on dividends down to more reasonable levels. Maybe if we weaned people off of dependence on others to pay for them, the danger you speak of would lessen because the way things are going, the dems have to keep spending on their voters in order to try to win elections and the rich cannot keep up with that spending so one day a revolt probably will happen

    when the rich refuse or cannot pay yet another tax hike and the dems no longer can pander to millions of people who have grown up expecting such entitlements.

    If you don't have a bird feeder in the area you live in some birds will starve to death in very bad conditions or permanently leave the area. HOwever, if you put out a bird feeder for several years and then one day stop filling it, most of the birds in the area will starve to death
    If people are hungry enough and they do not feel like they have a chance to make their lives better with the current system. They will find a way to do so outside the current system. Conditions were bad before the new deal (while birds can find food, so the situation is different), so this is not a bird feeder scenario.
    Last edited by tacomancer; 11-13-10 at 09:44 AM.

  8. #38
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    Re: How much do you care about taxing income

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    This is something that hit me while reading kandahar's interesting "how much do you care about the budget" post.

    Conservatives...if faced with the choice of lowering lower and middle class taxes but raising the rich's taxes, or keeping everyone at the place they're at now, which would you pick?

    Liberals...if faced with the choice of lowering everyones taxes, or keeping eveyrone at the place they're at now, which would you pick?

    This is a general thing, not necessarily relating directly to your choic during the economic crisis.
    For me, I think your last sentence is the most important. If faced with the choice of lowering everyone's taxes or keeping them where they are now...I'd probably want them lowered across the board in the short-term, but left at their current level in the long-term.

    Tax cuts can provide SOME relief from recession, albeit not nearly as effectively as quantitative easing or (best of all) more government spending. So in the short term I can definitely see the virtue in keeping taxes low to deal with our current economic problems. However, in the long term we need to pay for our government. If my only options are to PERMANENTLY lower taxes for everyone or leave them alone, I'd rather leave them where they are now.
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  9. #39
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    Re: How much do you care about taxing income

    I'm somewhat alarmed by the number of people in this thread bashing the Earned Income Tax Credit, which has strong bipartisan support in Congress and strong support from economists of all ideologies. The EITC is one of the most effective ways to alleviate poverty while simultaneously encouraging the poor to be productive citizens. I'm especially appalled by so many conservatives voicing opposition to negative (or zero) taxation for the poorest classes of society. Surely you believe that tax cuts are more effective than government programs for encouraging success and reducing dependence on the government, no?
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  10. #40
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    Re: How much do you care about taxing income

    from Kandahar

    The EITC is one of the most effective ways to alleviate poverty while simultaneously encouraging the poor to be productive citizens.
    That tells you why many here are bashing the credit and do not support it.
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