View Poll Results: Is Oklahoma Sharia Ban Constitutional?

Voters
33. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    17 51.52%
  • No, It's against the First Amendment of our Constitution

    9 27.27%
  • Other

    7 21.21%
Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 100

Thread: Is Oklahoma Sharia Ban Constitutional?

  1. #51
    Tavern Bartender
    Constitutionalist
    American's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:51 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    76,305

    Re: Is Oklahoma Sharia Ban Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kandahar View Post
    People have the right to specify in their wills where there property goes, and courts try to figure it out as best they can. For example, I could write in my will to divide it in accordance with the Canon law of the Catholic Church, or in accordance with the neutral arbitration of Judge Smith, or in accordance with the charter of my foundation. Assuming the courts could figure out my wishes, they would do so.

    To treat "in accordance with sharia law" as different than those other things would seem to be blatant religious discrimination.
    They can not enforce laws in their wills. If that were true you could have someone killed and say you had a 1st amendment right. The 1st amendment has nothing to do with property anyway.
    "He who does not think himself worth saving from poverty and ignorance by his own efforts, will hardly be thought worth the efforts of anybody else." -- Frederick Douglass, Self-Made Men (1872)
    "Fly-over" country voted, and The Donald is now POTUS.

  2. #52
    Guru
    Morality Games's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Last Seen
    05-24-16 @ 10:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    3,733

    Re: Is Oklahoma Sharia Ban Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Where does this do anything remotely like that?



    Nothing like that is in play here. It has nothing to do with anything other than how a court exercises its legitimate judicial power. That is squarely within the purview of the state, with no question whatsoever.
    I haven't read the law and haven't considered the merits of the point; it isn't a point I am arguing. I'm just saying, in principle the states wouldn't be able to order their courts to subsume a power that specifically belonged to the federal government, even though they have a relatively open ended right to order their courts.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  3. #53
    Equal Opportunity Hater
    obvious Child's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
    Last Seen
    12-09-14 @ 11:36 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    19,883

    Re: Is Oklahoma Sharia Ban Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    No, because it specifically includes law "as provided in the United States Constitution . . . the United States Code." Any treaty would fall under that.
    Read the bill. It doesn't make sense. International law includes foreign treaties. That bill just said that state courts must abide to US Law at the same time it must disregard US law.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

  4. #54
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:08 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,568

    Re: Is Oklahoma Sharia Ban Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Read the bill. It doesn't make sense. International law includes foreign treaties. That bill just said that state courts must abide to US Law at the same time it must disregard US law.
    Treaties to which the US is a party are specifically part of United States law, which the bill specifically includes. But not all "international law" is part of US law. There are plenty of international treaties and international bodies to which the United States is not a party and has no effect here. There are also plenty of things claimed as international law, or customary international law, which the United States does not recognize.

    This measure doesn't attempt to trump foreign policy or foreign relations in any way, by its own wording, it cannot.

    But even if it's confusing or self-conflicting, that does not rise to the level of "unconstitutional."
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  5. #55
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:08 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,568

    Re: Is Oklahoma Sharia Ban Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    I haven't read the law and haven't considered the merits of the point; it isn't a point I am arguing. I'm just saying, in principle the states wouldn't be able to order their courts to subsume a power that specifically belonged to the federal government, even though they have a relatively open ended right to order their courts.
    Well, perhaps you should brush up on the actual topic of discussion before commenting. I made no claims of which you speak.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  6. #56
    Sage
    Guy Incognito's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Last Seen
    12-02-17 @ 07:43 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    11,216

    Re: Is Oklahoma Sharia Ban Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by obvious Child View Post
    Read the bill. It doesn't make sense. International law includes foreign treaties. That bill just said that state courts must abide to US Law at the same time it must disregard US law.
    I see where you get your name from. I wish fewer people needed the obvious pointed out to them, and with such regularity.

    Beyond treaties, this fiasco prohibits OK courts from applying any customary international law that the United States does recognize, which is quite a bit. So it really is a contradiction on its own terms.

  7. #57
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:08 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,568

    Re: Is Oklahoma Sharia Ban Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Incognito View Post
    Beyond treaties, this fiasco prohibits OK courts from applying any customary international law that the United States does recognize
    Nope. Sorry.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  8. #58
    Guru
    Morality Games's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Last Seen
    05-24-16 @ 10:00 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    3,733

    Re: Is Oklahoma Sharia Ban Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Well, perhaps you should brush up on the actual topic of discussion before commenting. I made no claims of which you speak.
    I'm not interested in discussing the topic. But if you assert that states have a right to order courts in response to Guy Incognito's complaint that this subverts the federal government's right control foreign policy, then I am going to contextualize that assertion so that there is less chance people get the wrong idea.
    Last edited by Morality Games; 11-06-10 at 05:58 PM.
    If you notice something good in yourself, give credit to God, not to yourself, but be certain the evil you commit is always your own and yours to acknowledge.

    St. Benedict

  9. #59
    Filmmaker Lawyer Patriot
    Harshaw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Last Seen
    Today @ 04:08 PM
    Lean
    Libertarian - Right
    Posts
    29,568

    Re: Is Oklahoma Sharia Ban Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morality Games View Post
    I'm not interested in discussing the topic. But if you assert that states have a right to order courts in response to Guy Incognito's complaint that this subverts the federal government's right control foreign policy, then I am going to contextualize that assertion so that there is less chance people get the wrong idea.
    No, I said the states have the power to define their courts and the jurisdictions of those courts, which they absolutely do. I didn't say anything at all about giving courts the power over anything having remotely to do with foreign policy, not in the slightest -- or anything else non-judicial, for that matter.
    “Offing those rich pigs with their own forks and knives, and then eating a meal in the same room, far out! The Weathermen dig Charles Manson.”-- Bernadine Dohrn

  10. #60
    Equal Opportunity Hater
    obvious Child's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    0.0, -2.3 on the Political Compass
    Last Seen
    12-09-14 @ 11:36 PM
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    19,883

    Re: Is Oklahoma Sharia Ban Constitutional?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harshaw View Post
    Treaties to which the US is a party are specifically part of United States law, which the bill specifically includes.
    But at the same time bans.

    But not all "international law" is part of US law. There are plenty of international treaties and international bodies to which the United States is not a party and has no effect here. There are also plenty of things claimed as international law, or customary international law, which the United States does not recognize.
    True. But to lump international law in its entirety as this bill has done effectively creates a contradiction. It does not state that US treaties are not included.

    This measure doesn't attempt to trump foreign policy or foreign relations in any way, by its own wording, it cannot.
    Attempt is irrelevant. You may not attempt to do something, but end up doing it anyway.

    But even if it's confusing or self-conflicting, that does not rise to the level of "unconstitutional."
    We'll see about that. Explicitly forbidding state courts to apply treaties is ignoring the COTUS in delegating foreign relations to the federal government.
    "If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him." - Sun Tzu

Page 6 of 10 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •