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Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

  • Yes

    Votes: 6 14.0%

  • Probably

    Votes: 2 4.7%

  • Maybe

    Votes: 7 16.3%

  • Probably not

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No

    Votes: 28 65.1%

  • Don't know

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    43
haymarket said:
How many students have been forced to grovel and admit that they got the date wrong and thus do not deserve to FAIL? i do not know but I do know that now you are in that group.
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What group?


Have anything on the topic? I grow tired of your trolling.
 
haymarket said:
How many students have been forced to grovel and admit that they got the date wrong and thus do not deserve to FAIL? i do not know but I do know that now you are in that group.
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How many students have been forced to grovel and admit that they use legal terminology they don't have any idea what the **** it means and thus do not deserve to FAIL? i do not know but I do know that now you had better start groveling.

Rhetorical question, I know. :roll:
 
Oh - I did not realize we were in a court of law or in a law school where some terms have a strict meaning that differ from common usage. But do continue to bring up the same thing another ten times. It could be your signature even. And when you indict me also please indict Senator Specter and Justice Roberts also for using the same term.
 
haymarket said:
Oh - I did not realize we were in a court of law or in a law school where some terms have a strict meaning that differ from common usage. But do continue to bring up the same thing another ten times. It could be your signature even. And when you indict me also please indict Senator Specter and Justice Roberts also for using the same term.
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I bet you don't even see the irony in your whining about this.
 
Sorry Coronado, but I am orders from the mods not to discuss betting.
 
No.
Truth telling.
 
haymarket said:
No.
Truth telling.
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Truth? Let me tell you some truth -- you don't know what the **** you're talking about when you pinch off a loaf about the Constitution, or law in general. But keep pretending; it's entertaining as hell to watch a clueless critic with a chip on his shoulder and a head full of hyperbole face plant over and over again.

:popcorn:
 
TurtleDude said:
really? I have never seen any proof of that. HOwever, I have see lots of fascists pretend to be liberals because liberals want the state to have more and more power to "make things fair" or to "take care of people" and since both groups want more state power, it is a given that the fascist will cloak himself in the more touchy feely "lets take care of people" as a reason to increase power
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It's simple, really.

Fascists know that the false messiah of economic liberty will lead to a corporatized America that will line the pockets of the elite while exploiting the plebes. Libertarian and fascist ideals both lead to the same end: the proletariat slaving away for the good of hoi oligoi, i.e. our corporate overlords while calling it labor for the "common good."

All the fascist has to do is conceal his desire to rule people in the moral sphere as well, and BAM, he can insidiously effect policies designed to bring about a fascist America. The path is different, but the destination is the same.
 
our corporate overlords
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I welcome our new overlords. Our old overlords were terrible. I'm not forced to buy stuff (sure, a little tax) and we still get open elections, right?
 
Patria Antiqua said:
It's simple, really.

Fascists know that the false messiah of economic liberty will lead to a corporatized America that will line the pockets of the elite while exploiting the plebes. Libertarian and fascist ideals both lead to the same end: the proletariat slaving away for the good of hoi oligoi, i.e. our corporate overlords while calling it labor for the "common good."

All the fascist has to do is conceal his desire to rule people in the moral sphere as well, and BAM, he can insidiously effect policies designed to bring about a fascist America. The path is different, but the destination is the same.
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Translation: Government overlords > Corporate overlords.
 
There is much wisdom in the post of Partia Antiqua. The excellent part is this

Libertarian and fascist ideals both lead to the same end: the proletariat slaving away for the good of hoi oligoi, i.e. our corporate overlords while calling it labor for the "common good."
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This is something that the average believer in libertarianism probably does not comprehend. Ideology be damned. Hypotheticals be damned. This is about the inevitable results of the way a certainly belief system will impose on society. And Antiqua is wise enough to see this.

Decreasing government to the level that is advocated by many libertarians will only embolden corporations and the corporatists who serve and enable them. The losers will be average working people whose income will continue to shrink compared to the rich and whose rights will be slowly eroded over time until we are all on The Road To Serfdom.
 
haymarket said:
There is much wisdom in the post of Partia Antiqua. The excellent part is this



This is something that the average believer in libertarianism probably does not comprehend. Ideology be damned. Hypotheticals be damned. This is about the inevitable results of the way a certainly belief system will impose on society. And Antiqua is wise enough to see this.

Decreasing government to the level that is advocated by many libertarians will only embolden corporations and the corporatists who serve and enable them. The losers will be average working people whose income will continue to shrink compared to the rich and whose rights will be slowly eroded over time until we are all on The Road To Serfdom.
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How the hell does a corporation take away your rights without the use of government?
 
Here are but a few of the examples of damage done to America by the new corporate order.

Creating industry cabals thus negating any free choice the consumer has except to pay what is demanded.
By imposing restrictions on political activity negating ones rights to participate in the democratic process.
Buying elections and politicians with their unreported monies negating the will of the average person and weakening the process that is central and sacred to Americans.
By polluting the air , land and water negating my right to life itself.
By getting those politicians who they have purchased to adopt laws and policies which injure Americans, which weaken their rights and which further us down the road to becoming a two class society.
 
haymarket said:
Here are but a few of the examples of damage done to America by the new corporate order.

Creating industry cabals thus negating any free choice the consumer has except to pay what is demanded.
By imposing restrictions on political activity negating ones rights to participate in the democratic process.
Buying elections and politicians with their unreported monies negating the will of the average person and weakening the process that is central and sacred to Americans.
By polluting the air , land and water negating my right to life itself.
By getting those politicians who they have purchased to adopt laws and policies which injure Americans, which weaken their rights and which further us down the road to becoming a two class society.
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Non-responsive answer.* All but one of those involves government. Further, the "new corporate order" is something for which you have to thank your pals in the Democratic Party. They and the Republicans got us to this "new corporate order" you describe.

Try again. Please do not hesitate to let me know if I need to use smaller words so that you might better understand the question.





*In simple terms, the answer didn't address the question.
 
Last edited:
from coronado

All but one of those involves government.
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So what? that is not and never has been the issue. The issue is what corporations are doing to harm America and the American people.




Lets look at that list

Creating industry cabals thus negating any free choice the consumer has except to pay what is demanded.
That is not done by government. It is done by corporations seeking to dominate and control a market.


By imposing restrictions on political activity negating ones rights to participate in the democratic process.
That is not done by government. It is done by corporations and employers.

Buying elections and politicians with their unreported monies negating the will of the average person and weakening the process that is central and sacred to Americans.
That is not done by government. It is done by those who serve the corporatists interests.

By polluting the air , land and water negating my right to life itself.
That is not done by government. It is done by the polluters/corporations themselves.

By getting those politicians who they have purchased to adopt laws and policies which injure Americans, which weaken their rights and which further us down the road to becoming a two class society.
That starts with the corporations and the lobbyists who serve their interests.

and Coronado...

Please do not hesitate to let me know if I need to use smaller words so that you might better understand the question.
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You really do not need to use this tone. If you fail to express yourself clearly, I will be sure to let you know. Other than that happening, you can be sure that I am keeping up.
 
There is always going to be someone who wants more power and not everyone is going to stand up to those people. Libertarianism might not enable government fascism but it would certainly enable warlordism through decentralization. It is more practical to have one central government overlooking several smaller, relatively autonomous prefectures than it is to reduce government to the point that it is impotent in preventing sectarian violence and power grabs.

Libertarianism would require a change in the culture of responsibility and values of governance. People would have to be pro-active all the time and frankly I don't think it could happen. Even before modern statism, people were still just trying to live their lives day to day. It's a reality that most people are not politically conscious to the levels that would be required for a libertarian society to have long term potential.
 
Orion said:
There is always going to be someone who wants more power and not everyone is going to stand up to those people. Libertarianism might not enable government fascism but it would certainly enable warlordism through decentralization. It is more practical to have one central government overlooking several smaller, relatively autonomous prefectures than it is to reduce government to the point that it is impotent in preventing sectarian violence and power grabs.

Libertarianism would require a change in the culture of responsibility and values of governance. People would have to be pro-active all the time and frankly I don't think it could happen. Even before modern statism, people were still just trying to live their lives day to day. It's a reality that most people are not politically conscious to the levels that would be required for a libertarian society to have long term potential.
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Warlordism? :lamo


Seriously you all need to figure out that Libertarianism =/= anarchism. /facepalm
 
Has libertarianism ever been tried/implemented anywhere? is it one of those 'not really' things... like... communism?
 
haymarket said:
from coronado



So what? that is not and never has been the issue. The issue is what corporations are doing to harm America and the American people.
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Yeah, it is the issue. Remember what I asked you?
Coronado said:
How the hell does a corporation take away your rights without the use of government?
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Try answering that question, as it is basically the heart of the libertarian argument.

I know you won't, since deflection into the realm of feverish hyperbole is your favored tactic, but I thought I'd point this out to those rational people who may be following along.
haymarket said:
Lets look at that list

Creating industry cabals thus negating any free choice the consumer has except to pay what is demanded.
That is not done by government. It is done by corporations seeking to dominate and control a market.


By imposing restrictions on political activity negating ones rights to participate in the democratic process.
That is not done by government. It is done by corporations and employers.

Buying elections and politicians with their unreported monies negating the will of the average person and weakening the process that is central and sacred to Americans.
That is not done by government. It is done by those who serve the corporatists interests.

By polluting the air , land and water negating my right to life itself.
That is not done by government. It is done by the polluters/corporations themselves.

By getting those politicians who they have purchased to adopt laws and policies which injure Americans, which weaken their rights and which further us down the road to becoming a two class society.
That starts with the corporations and the lobbyists who serve their interests.
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All but one of those would go away if government had less control over the general populace. So, connecting the dots, that is why I asked the question above.

The pollution example can and frequently is handled using common law nuisance actions, which also fit well within the framework of a run-of-the-mill libertarian idea of government.
haymarket said:
and Coronado...



You really do not need to use this tone. If you fail to express yourself clearly, I will be sure to let you know. Other than that happening, you can be sure that I am keeping up.
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What, you don't appreciate having the condescending tone you use thrown right back at you? I guess you're just going to have to get used to it, as I will continue addressing you as belligerently as I desire. Deal with it. Or, to use your words, "man up."
 
Good post Orion. I notice you said this

Libertarianism would require a change in the culture of responsibility and values of governance.
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I would go even further. It would require a sea change in the way human beings operate on their own and how they relate to each other. It would require a change to basic human nature. Everyone must be changed into being smart, being capable, being talented, being aware of everything around them, being self reliant for almost everything, and being able to take care of themselves in almost every choice they have to make regardless of the information available. In short, they would have to stop being the human beings that we are and become something else entirely.
 
haymarket said:
Good post Orion. I notice you said this



I would go even further. It would require a sea change in the way human beings operate on their own and how they relate to each other. It would require a change to basic human nature. Everyone must be changed into being smart, being capable, being talented, being aware of everything around them, being self reliant for almost everything, and being able to take care of themselves in almost every choice they have to make regardless of the information available. In short, they would have to stop being the human beings that we are and become something else entirely.
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Except, that's not true at all. :shrug:
 
haymarket said:
Good post Orion. I notice you said this



I would go even further. It would require a sea change in the way human beings operate on their own and how they relate to each other. It would require a change to basic human nature. Everyone must be changed into being smart, being capable, being talented, being aware of everything around them, being self reliant for almost everything, and being able to take care of themselves in almost every choice they have to make regardless of the information available. In short, they would have to stop being the human beings that we are and become something else entirely.
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What in the hell gives you the idea that you know what people would have to do to adopt a libertarian governance if you don't even have the first clue of what libertarianism is or how a libertarian government would operate?

What a joke.
 
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