View Poll Results: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

Voters
53. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    9 16.98%
  • Probably

    2 3.77%
  • Maybe

    8 15.09%
  • Probably not

    0 0%
  • No

    33 62.26%
  • Don't know

    1 1.89%
Page 8 of 35 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 344

Thread: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

  1. #71
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    I wouldn't characterize Cato as quasi-Republican. They are definitely rigorously ideological - almost to the point of religious - in their application of libertarian articles of faith in formulating economic positions. However, while the sincerity of their members might not be in question, their funding base includes a number of powerful, predatory corporations, so we basically have True Believers being wielded as weapons by the most cynical of interests. As for their output, it would often literally be laughed out of a 1st-year economics course, but is typically presented as the august word of experts because of the money behind them. They speak through the lens of "Laffer Curve reality," where zero taxation would equal infinite revenue. So it's not really a think tank - not much thinking can go on when your conclusions are predetermined - but more of a libertarian monastery.
    Umm first of all, one of the defining characteristics of being libertarian, is that is doesn't just stop at the ballot box but it is a pathway to walk.
    Your life is changed in total because of the belief system.

    No one believes that zero taxation brings in revenue, but of course I rarely if ever see anyone try to "debunk" there economic policy suggestions.
    It's definitely a think tank, much like that of the Brookings Institute.
    Both, in my mind, are high quality institutions of information.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  2. #72
    Sage

    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:21 PM
    Lean
    Undisclosed
    Posts
    89,633

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    from Harry G.


    Umm first of all, one of the defining characteristics of being libertarian, is that is doesn't just stop at the ballot box but it is a pathway to walk.
    Your life is changed in total because of the belief system.
    And based on election results in cycle after cycle, it does begin at the ballot box either. In fact, the ballot box rarely gets used by Libertarians at all. Either that or they could hold their conventions in the old phone booths that Clark Kent used to change in.

    Your are very right to call it a BELIEF SYSTEM. It has much in common with other beliefs. The ones that come to mind right away are faeries, unicorns and the Easter Bunny. You believe simply because you want to believe.

  3. #73
    Sage
    German guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Last Seen
    08-24-17 @ 06:57 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    5,187

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    I often don't agree with the propositions from CATO, but they at least have integrity when it comes to small government values. Personally, I am a bit too convinced of the necessity of redistribution to be a libertarian myself, but I think they are spot on on some topics, and I'm glad they at least exist.

    As for the fascism argument: As I explained above, I don't think libertarian ideology has anything to do with fascism. In fact, there could hardly be a less fascist ideology. But I do see the danger that expanding markets, with the side effect of allowing inequality to increase and democratic participation to be curbed, has the unwanted side effect of turning more people towards demagoguery. That can be fascist demagoguery, communism or anything else. In these regards, maybe you can say that implementation of libertarian free market ideas has the side effect of pushing more people in the arms of demagogues, although this is the exact opposite of what libertarians intend. I see that danger.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  4. #74
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    And based on election results in cycle after cycle, it does begin at the ballot box either. In fact, the ballot box rarely gets used by Libertarians at all. Either that or they could hold their conventions in the old phone booths that Clark Kent used to change in.
    That is to be expected.

    While many libertarians have an emotional attachment to their beliefs, the beliefs themselves are derived from logical and analytical thinking.
    Where as most others derive their beliefs, from the more common, emotional decision making.


    Quote Originally Posted by haymarket View Post
    Your are very right to call it a BELIEF SYSTEM. It has much in common with other beliefs. The ones that come to mind right away are faeries, unicorns and the Easter Bunny. You believe simply because you want to believe.
    Every political system, is a belief system.

    As to the latter comment, it's funny to me, that most of our harshest critics use ridicule and hyperbole to describe us.
    I guess straight up fact based arguments aren't as effective.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  5. #75
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    I often don't agree with the propositions from CATO, but they at least have integrity when it comes to small government values. Personally, I am a bit too convinced of the necessity of redistribution to be a libertarian myself, but I think they are spot on on some topics, and I'm glad they at least exist.

    As for the fascism argument: As I explained above, I don't think libertarian ideology has anything to do with fascism. In fact, there could hardly be a less fascist ideology. But I do see the danger that expanding markets, with the side effect of allowing inequality to increase and democratic participation to be curbed, has the unwanted side effect of turning more people towards demagoguery. That can be fascist demagoguery, communism or anything else. In these regards, maybe you can say that implementation of libertarian free market ideas has the side effect of pushing more people in the arms of demagogues, although this is the exact opposite of what libertarians intend. I see that danger.
    I think the common beliefs that markets naturally create monopolies and giant firms, is misplaced.
    That is where a lot of people seem to have problems with freer market ideology.

    When we examine firms, we come to find that a lot/most of their "giantness" is stemmed from government favor and not from the natural growth of the firm itself.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  6. #76
    Sage
    German guy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Last Seen
    08-24-17 @ 06:57 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    5,187

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Guerrilla View Post
    I think the common beliefs that markets naturally create monopolies and giant firms, is misplaced.
    That is where a lot of people seem to have problems with freer market ideology.
    Probably you are right, but my skepticism towards too unregulated markets is another problem: While the libertarian ideal of a really free market may sound nice on the paper, I don't think it is realistic. No matter how small government, there will always be some attempt of circumventing free market principles by both corrupt officials and corrupt private actors (yes, they often work against free market principles too, because they are more interested in rent seeking). It's simply not realistic to expect this to vanish entirely.

    And my second point is that while genuinely free markets may not create monopolies and/or multinational companies by default, the market still creates a situation where there is extreme inequality. That's because some people simply have less to sell on the market (skills, workforce, etc) than they need to make for a living (think of ill, handicapped, elderly, very unintelligent people and so on). And markets create a situation where it's not really your effort and hard work that pays off, but you get rewarded for your possessions you have already: When you have few money, it's very difficult to make a little more, but when you have a lot already, it's very easy to make more -- in some cases, you can just let your money work for you, without investing much effort yourself. Maybe it's indeed the system with the smallest possible amount of coercion, but when your belly is empty, you can't fill it with that freedom. Freedom is not everything, satisfying basic needs is at least just as important.

    The free market may be efficient, but in my personal opinion, this does not satisfy what I believe is an inherent human instinct: An instinct for fairness. It also flies in the face of the normative conviction that human beings all have an equal value, regardless of skills and traits -- on the market, their value is reduced to what they can sell, or on how many possessions they have. That's too Darwinist for my taste.

    And because an inherent sense of fairness is indeed a probably even genetic trait in humans (many studies found that the common human instinctively tolerates only limited inequality), it's unrealistic to expect that there can ever be a true consensus for extirely free, unleashed markets without any limits. Those who are disadvantaged materially by such a free market will always turn to alternative ideologies.

    That's why I am not quite as fond of free markets as libertarians, and why I believe limited redistribution, and the possibility for democratic participation and positive freedom are necessary. Also, I believe some libertarians often underestimate the problem that private actors too are often not really interested in respecting the free market, when it comes to expanding their profits. But I agree with libertarians insofar that they emphasize the efficiency of markets, and are warning of regulating it too much: Many left-leaning people seem to lack the awareness that markets are indeed very efficient, and go way too far when it comes to curbing markets, or redistribution. That's why I think it's good libertarians exist, and make their voices heard in the debate, because the debate often is dominated by voices who don't seem to really appreciate the strengthes of free markets, that indeed exist.

    When we examine firms, we come to find that a lot/most of their "giantness" is stemmed from government favor and not from the natural growth of the firm itself.
    Yes, that is often the case. But you also see private actors violating free market principles, by exploiting externalities and information assymmetry, by cancelling out true competition by conspirative agreements, and so on. Libertarians I met often don't seem to take this into account enough, IMHO.
    Last edited by German guy; 11-05-10 at 03:40 PM.
    "Not learning from mistakes is worse than committing mistakes. When you don't allow yourself to make mistakes, it is hard to be tolerant of others and it does not allow even God to be merciful."

  7. #77
    Sage
    Harry Guerrilla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Not affiliated with other libertarians.
    Last Seen
    09-01-17 @ 02:38 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    28,955

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by German guy View Post
    ....
    A lot to cover here, but I do appreciate your valid criticism and reasonable tone, in which you express your argument.

    I have to go to work shortly and wouldn't want to craft a quick response, to something that requires, a bit more time a detail.
    I'll address it better in a little while.
    I was discovering that life just simply isn't fair and bask in the unsung glory of knowing that each obstacle overcome along the way only adds to the satisfaction in the end. Nothing great, after all, was ever accomplished by anyone sulking in his or her misery.
    —Adam Shepard

  8. #78
    Sage
    Ikari's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Colorado
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 01:05 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian - Left
    Posts
    54,124

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    I think I've made some pretty rigorous arguments, so either you must have simply ignored them or you're looking for something more. What more would you like?
    Something that is more than just your conjecture and supposition based on your personal bigotries; that would be a good place to start.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

  9. #79
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:10 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,076

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism by making institutions weak and vulnerable to private violence?
    given that fascism is statist in nature, and of necessity involves extremely powerful state insitutions, almost by tautology the answer would have to be no.

  10. #80
    Mr. Professional
    Mensch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Last Seen
    08-24-17 @ 04:07 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    3,666
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Do libertarians inadvertently enable fascism?

    Quote Originally Posted by Troubadour View Post
    I'll give you two names and two hard references, although I could give you hundreds. Bush admits to torturing Khalid Sheik Mohammed.

    George W. Bush Admits Torture, Says He Would 'Do It Again' | CommonDreams.org

    Abu Zubayda's account of torture was confirmed by a CIA source.

    Six Questions for Jane Mayer, Author of The Dark Side?By Scott Horton (Harper's Magazine)

    As to the murders, the most concrete were two deaths under torture-interrogation. The ICRC (International Committee of The Red Cross) brought them to the attention of the CIA Inspector General, who wrote a classified report saying that the program under which they were interrogated was illegal, and that their deaths probably constituted war crimes. Dick Cheney summoned the report's author to a meeting, despite having no official authority over him or his agency, and the investigation was terminated shortly thereafter (ibid). There many other deaths under torture, but those were the most egregious, and went the furthest toward official recognition.

    Now, will you acknowledge the simple human truth of these atrocities?
    How about the fact that Obama broke his promise never to allow the outsourcing of torture? Obama has not repealed the executive order giving the president almost unlimited power to conduct covert warfare. We STILL ship terrorist suspects to other countries, in the dead of night, so that they may be "interrogated" for information. And who is giving the direct order to bomb and shoot thousands of people in Afghanistan, all for the crusade to capture one man? Is it REALLY worth it?

Page 8 of 35 FirstFirst ... 67891018 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •